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Old 03-17-2016, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
5,281 posts, read 6,569,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
This is true.

I'm beginning to think you are one of the most self hating negros that the internet has ever seen lol!

Affirmative Action was put into place as an opportunity to minority groups. As you stated, white women have been the primary benefactors.

However, I always laugh when libertarians and conservative black people in general think that Affirmative Action has been hurtful to black Americans as a large amount of the conservative black elites (Clarence Thomas and Ben Carson come to mind) can 100% place the affirmative action program as the primary reason for their success being that they would not have been accepted to the colleges/universities of which they attended if it had not been for the program.

Back then, like now, Affirmative Action programs target the highest achieving minority individuals and provide them with opportunities for considering at schools and public employment. Without AA, the black professional middle class (not working the working class in regards to manufacturing) would not exist in the same way it does today.

Today, it is not as beneficial IMO to the black demographic, but when it was put into place it was highly beneficial especially to my grandmother's generation. She graduated high school in the mid 1950s. Blacks of that era were systematically denied admission to colleges/universities solely because they were black and they were denied employment opportunities because they were black.


you miss the point. My point is that Affirmative Action was put in place to discredit black people. It was put in place to maintain the perspective of black inferiority. Anyone who has been black and in important decisions making, notice one thing. A white guy makes a mistake, and he's given room to fail. But a black person mess up, they're automatically incompetent, and shouldn't be in the position.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:41 AM
 
20,622 posts, read 19,277,825 times
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRLAKD-Vuvk


The planning phase of our present reality that Friedman and Sowell fought valiantly. I don't agree with their financial model, but their social policy was fantastic.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:48 AM
 
20,622 posts, read 19,277,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branh0913 View Post
you miss the point. My point is that Affirmative Action was put in place to discredit black people. It was put in place to maintain the perspective of black inferiority. Anyone who has been black and in important decisions making, notice one thing. A white guy makes a mistake, and he's given room to fail. But a black person mess up, they're automatically incompetent, and shouldn't be in the position.
That is exactly right but its worse than this. If you hire a black person you can't fire them. This is exactly the problem Europe has. They are reluctant to hire because it is so difficult to fire any of them. So those with merit cannot have a shot and those that have jobs are entrenched. So a firm will hire tokens and use you know who for the volatile workforce.

Yeah its only a problem classical economics could solves but genius and morals are two strikes down. Well at least they had two balls though....
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:56 AM
 
16,212 posts, read 10,778,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerseygal4u View Post
The OP has a point,but not for the reason he claims.

AA has helped more white women than anyone else,yet black people are the face of AA.

I am not quite sure why white women are considered a minority group,i guess we would have to ask Hillary Clinton.

So AA helps more white women,but Asians are not,even though they are a true minority....strange.
Affirmative Action does help Asians. They are just not the primary benefactors. Due to white women being such a large "minority" they are the ones who are the primary benefactors.

And FWIW, white women were heavily discriminated against prior to the 1970s and even through the 1980s and 1990s in regards to the workplace.

Though I am a black woman, I am a student of history so am well aware of the trials that white women faced. Those of a certain class were basically just servants. They were not allowed to work if they had young children or were pregnant. They were second class citizens. It was not in the same way as racial minorities, but the opportunities for women in previous eras were severely limited.

Many find it controversial, but in many ways, especially amongst the lower classes, black women were better off due to, if they had an abusive husband or a husband who was financially irresponsible, they could go out and get a job as a domestic and make extra money and take care of the family. White women who were middle class could not do this. There were barriers in place. White women were only allowed to do certain jobs as well and were barred from various career opportunities. So as stated, it was a different sort of discrimination, but it did exist and IMO they did need Affirmative Action and still do as workplace discrimination and STEM fields in particular are still prejudicial to white women (and all women).

FWIW, many don't know that the NAACP was vital in the fight for women's rights when it comes to white women. People disparage the organization but its legal wing - the Legal Defense Fund fought cases on behalf of workplace discrimination for white women.

Quote:
Originally Posted by branh0913 View Post
you miss the point. My point is that Affirmative Action was put in place to discredit black people. It was put in place to maintain the perspective of black inferiority. Anyone who has been black and in important decisions making, notice one thing. A white guy makes a mistake, and he's given room to fail. But a black person mess up, they're automatically incompetent, and shouldn't be in the position.
No you missed the historical point as usual it seems.

As stated, AA was put into place to give black people the opportunity to better themselves.

Racial bias then and now is negatively pervasive against black Americans, in part because of things spewn on social media and regular media similar to the things of which you speak. I personally have no issue with your words as I know they are not true and are coming from a place of ignorance (not calling you ignorant but meaning you lack a knowledge about 20th century history as it is very evident in your posts about black people in particular, if you are a reader, if you like, I'll DM you a list of suggested reading so you can become more educated about American history of the 20th century).

The concept of black inferiority already existed and was blatantly played out in our society prior to the implementation of AA. The blatant adherence to the ideology of black inferiority is what pushed black activist and non-black to lobby our government to make it law that one could not be denied opportunities in our government specifically based on race, ethnicity, or gender.

Please note that the first Affirmative Action decree was specific to federal contracting opportunities and not educational or private workplaces/businesses. Further note that not all employers are bound by the employment provisions of Affirmative Action. It is a common thought that all American employers must use Affirmative Action. That is not the case at all, only those who either adopt an Affirmative Action policy or who deal/work with government abide by AA. Most employers do not.
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Old 03-17-2016, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
5,281 posts, read 6,569,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post


No you missed the historical point as usual it seems.

As stated, AA was put into place to give black people the opportunity to better themselves.

Racial bias then and now is negatively pervasive against black Americans, in part because of things spewn on social media and regular media similar to the things of which you speak. I personally have no issue with your words as I know they are not true and are coming from a place of ignorance (not calling you ignorant but meaning you lack a knowledge about 20th century history as it is very evident in your posts about black people in particular, if you are a reader, if you like, I'll DM you a list of suggested reading so you can become more educated about American history of the 20th century).
This is my problem with your logic. Why would you even want to work with someone who is racially biased? I mean let's say I have a boss who don't want to hire black people. Then he is told due to affirmative action he will have to hire blacks. How do you think he is going to treat me as a black man on the job? I think he will spend more of his time trying to find a good reason to fire me, than allow me to excel at my job.

It appears to me that affirmative action has only one goal. Getting you a job. But getting the job isn't the same as exceling at the job. Becoming an leader in your field, and building up your credibility.

Quote:
The concept of black inferiority already existed and was blatantly played out in our society prior to the implementation of AA. The blatant adherence to the ideology of black inferiority is what pushed black activist and non-black to lobby our government to make it law that one could not be denied opportunities in our government specifically based on race, ethnicity, or gender.
Yes it has existed in society. And unfortunately Affirmative action has strengthened it not weakened it. I don't feel that the overall perspective of black people is all that much better than it was in the 1960s. The main problem is that affirmative action isn't solving the fundamental problem about black America.

Narrative and perception. If you want your black kids to excel without racial discrimination, then there must be a perception that black people are up to par. But that must be a matter of public perception, and it must be apart of the public narrative. The issue is that affirmative action sustains the same ol narrative and doesn't really show people there is a real difference.

Quote:
Please note that the first Affirmative Action decree was specific to federal contracting opportunities and not educational or private workplaces/businesses. Further note that not all employers are bound by the employment provisions of Affirmative Action. It is a common thought that all American employers must use Affirmative Action. That is not the case at all, only those who either adopt an Affirmative Action policy or who deal/work with government abide by AA. Most employers do not.

You're stating facts about affirmative action. But you miss the point as to why I think it's bad. It's perception. It doesn't matter the scope of affirmative action, or any real facts behind it. It is all in what the public perceives it to be. And perception is really quite a powerful thing. I would prefer to be in a system with no affirmative action, where everyone believe it was me who excelled. And not be in a system where people won't even begin to take me seriously professionally based on what they perceive affirmative action to be.
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Old 03-17-2016, 12:46 PM
 
16,212 posts, read 10,778,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branh0913 View Post
This is my problem with your logic. Why would you even want to work with someone who is racially biased? I mean let's say I have a boss who don't want to hire black people. Then he is told due to affirmative action he will have to hire blacks. How do you think he is going to treat me as a black man on the job? I think he will spend more of his time trying to find a good reason to fire me, than allow me to excel at my job.

It appears to me that affirmative action has only one goal. Getting you a job. But getting the job isn't the same as exceling at the job. Becoming an leader in your field, and building up your credibility.



Yes it has existed in society. And unfortunately Affirmative action has strengthened it not weakened it. I don't feel that the overall perspective of black people is all that much better than it was in the 1960s. The main problem is that affirmative action isn't solving the fundamental problem about black America.

Narrative and perception. If you want your black kids to excel without racial discrimination, then there must be a perception that black people are up to par. But that must be a matter of public perception, and it must be apart of the public narrative. The issue is that affirmative action sustains the same ol narrative and doesn't really show people there is a real difference.




You're stating facts about affirmative action. But you miss the point as to why I think it's bad. It's perception. It doesn't matter the scope of affirmative action, or any real facts behind it. It is all in what the public perceives it to be. And perception is really quite a powerful thing. I would prefer to be in a system with no affirmative action, where everyone believe it was me who excelled. And not be in a system where people won't even begin to take me seriously professionally based on what they perceive affirmative action to be.
LOL at the red!!

So this is just about you and your need to denigrate black people and Affirmative Action lol.

Affirmative Action is not meant to solve the fundamental problems of black America...It is meant to allow qualified minorities (not just black) to have opportunities for employment and an education at public institutions and organizations.

ETA: On the blue, only individuals can change the perspectives they have (i.e. biases) of black Americans. As I have shared, black people, even according to statistics are doing very well on various measures and have dramatically improved since the 1960s. However, the perception of us as improving is never on the minds of the populace and it seems it is never on your mind either. Our demographic has been consistently deemed a "problem." Nothing we do will change that perception in regards to how others, non-black see us as a demographic.

As I have shared on these boards though, my own goal, and it is one of my main goals in life actually, is to educate black people about what black culture truly is and how far we have come on every measure. We are survivors and warriors IMO and our legacy is one to be proud of. You, it seems, do not think this is the case. You, like the media has trained you to do, constantly see us as a "problem" instead of as the beautiful, determined, persevering people that we truly are. It is also interesting to me that you constantly bring up the libertarian aspect of your views as if that makes you "special" about anything in particular. As you stated about perceptions, regardless of your politics or your ideology or your education, or where you live, or where you work, in America, you will ALWAYS be seen and perceived as black and all the negatives that goes on with that. Instead of internalizing that inferiority mindset, you should focus on the positives and beauty of your people and use their historical example to continue to persevere and do well and along the way help someone out on the journey. Not berate or attempt to insinuate that we should spend our times working to impress white people or America in general. We shouldn't care what society thinks of us as a group. If you are knowledgeable about your history you will be fine and dandy with being black. It is a wonderful thing to be and there is nothing wrong with it and we are not an "issue" or a "problem."

Last edited by residinghere2007; 03-17-2016 at 12:54 PM..
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Old 03-17-2016, 12:49 PM
 
17,361 posts, read 9,189,828 times
Reputation: 11820
Quote:
Originally Posted by branh0913 View Post
you miss the point. My point is that Affirmative Action was put in place to discredit black people. It was put in place to maintain the perspective of black inferiority. Anyone who has been black and in important decisions making, notice one thing. A white guy makes a mistake, and he's given room to fail. But a black person mess up, they're automatically incompetent, and shouldn't be in the position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post

No you missed the historical point as usual it seems.

As stated, AA was put into place to give black people the opportunity to better themselves.

Racial bias then and now is negatively pervasive against black Americans, in part because of things spewn on social media and regular media similar to the things of which you speak. I personally have no issue with your words as I know they are not true and are coming from a place of ignorance (not calling you ignorant but meaning you lack a knowledge about 20th century history as it is very evident in your posts about black people in particular, if you are a reader, if you like, I'll DM you a list of suggested reading so you can become more educated about American history of the 20th century).

The concept of black inferiority already existed and was blatantly played out in our society prior to the implementation of AA. The blatant adherence to the ideology of black inferiority is what pushed black activist and non-black to lobby our government to make it law that one could not be denied opportunities in our government specifically based on race, ethnicity, or gender.

Please note that the first Affirmative Action decree was specific to federal contracting opportunities and not educational or private workplaces/businesses. Further note that not all employers are bound by the employment provisions of Affirmative Action. It is a common thought that all American employers must use Affirmative Action. That is not the case at all, only those who either adopt an Affirmative Action policy or who deal/work with government abide by AA. Most employers do not.
I pretty much agree with most of what you say here, particularly about how it works in the Business sector. It's not just Federal Contracts that require Affirmative Action - Local and State do also. The Employer refers to it as a "quota" system and it's done on points. A black/hispanic female with any type of disability will get the employer/contractor the most points. That would count as 3 AA hires.

What we are seeing today with Affirmative Action is Unintended Consequences. It's true that it's difficult to "fire" an AA hire ... and sometimes impossible. Worse are the lawsuits and subtle blackmail with threats of lawsuits. It began as "equal opportunity", but it's morphed into "protected class" with no regard for Qualification. We now see this in College entrance (poor scores requiring remedial education) and in hires for Fire/Police when the AA hire can't pass a test. The solution according to Sotomayor (US Supreme Court Justice now) was to toss out the test and promote them. It's dumbing down society and the Original Poster is correct that it is not helping Black people at all, because they do get the blame and the resentment. They also often are the recipients of unfair perceptions .... i.e. "they only got the job because of AA".

I strongly disagree with the idea that Affirmative Action was conceived to "discredit" Black people - but there are certainly signs that it might have done that. I'm an old boomer and I certainly remember how it used to be .... we needed this program. It now has quickly diminishing returns and even negative results.
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Old 03-17-2016, 01:14 PM
 
1,431 posts, read 908,954 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
The concept of black inferiority already existed and was blatantly played out in our society prior to the implementation of AA. The blatant adherence to the ideology of black inferiority is what pushed black activist and non-black to lobby our government to make it law that one could not be denied opportunities in our government specifically based on race, ethnicity, or gender.
True. And it was a good program at first, but now it has turned into a makeshift crutch that creates resentment among white people. What about the minorities that actually earned their positions? We get looked at like we received a handout. I sleep fine at night, but it gets tiring being lumped in all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox Terrier View Post
Your question is valid. Anyone have an answer???
You put Condi Rice wasn't questioned because she was conservative. So we can eliminate racism and misogyny by that logic.

Anyway, I think it's a little disingenuous to say it's always focused on blacks to answer your question. I see more about illegal immigrants and Muslims, to be honest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by branh0913 View Post
This is my problem with your logic. Why would you even want to work with someone who is racially biased? I mean let's say I have a boss who don't want to hire black people. Then he is told due to affirmative action he will have to hire blacks. How do you think he is going to treat me as a black man on the job? I think he will spend more of his time trying to find a good reason to fire me, than allow me to excel at my job.
Sums up what I always say. I would rather someone be blatantly racist in my face and let his/her feelings be known about blacks (or anyone else) so I know where we stand...not the closet racist that gets put in a position of power and slowly pushes their agenda until they get caught. Which is usually too late by that time that happens. Dozens of people lose their jobs because of "performance issues" or whatever other bull**** excuse they come up with. This actually happened to me. Had a job for six months with no problems or infractions; got along great with the section leader and the deputy (and even hung out with them outside of work). Both of them left for a few weeks on business, the acting section leader stepped up, and I was fired two weeks later for "incompetence".

Last edited by Ibginnie; 03-18-2016 at 07:56 PM.. Reason: deleted quoted post
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Old 03-17-2016, 01:19 PM
 
16,212 posts, read 10,778,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibby View Post
I pretty much agree with most of what you say here, particularly about how it works in the Business sector. It's not just Federal Contracts that require Affirmative Action - Local and State do also. The Employer refers to it as a "quota" system and it's done on points. A black/hispanic female with any type of disability will get the employer/contractor the most points. That would count as 3 AA hires.

What we are seeing today with Affirmative Action is Unintended Consequences. It's true that it's difficult to "fire" an AA hire ... and sometimes impossible. Worse are the lawsuits and subtle blackmail with threats of lawsuits. It began as "equal opportunity", but it's morphed into "protected class" with no regard for Qualification. We now see this in College entrance (poor scores requiring remedial education) and in hires for Fire/Police when the AA hire can't pass a test. The solution according to Sotomayor (US Supreme Court Justice now) was to toss out the test and promote them. It's dumbing down society and the Original Poster is correct that it is not helping Black people at all, because they do get the blame and the resentment. They also often are the recipients of unfair perceptions .... i.e. "they only got the job because of AA".

I strongly disagree with the idea that Affirmative Action was conceived to "discredit" Black people - but there are certainly signs that it might have done that. I'm an old boomer and I certainly remember how it used to be .... we needed this program. It now has quickly diminishing returns and even negative results.

I wanted to note that I have worked on federal, state, and municipal/county contracting programs due to being a procurement manager for many years.

On the federal level, they do not automatically give any awards based on race. Neither race nor ethnicity nor gender are even a determining factor in award.

On state and local, it depends on the jobs. But in general less than 5% of government contract expenditures are awarded to MBE or WBE firms and that includes Asians and Native American and Hispanic firms.

On hiring, I have also worked in an HR role for a private company that worked for the government. We did not hire minorities because of AA.

AA in most private and public employers who follow their standards only require that we not disallow a hiring of a qualified minority and instead hire an unqualified majority resident.

I agree perception is at issue, but it is my opinion based on a in depth knowledge of these programs that the media and general prejudice is used as a basis for this so-called negative perception of black Americans.

Also as stated, black Americans have always been perceived negatively. No specific program, like AA or any others has contributed to a more negative view.

A while ago, I re-read a famous book by WEB DuBois called "Souls of Black Folk." In that book he speaks of negative stereotypes that were widely believed in his era. The book was published in 1903 and those stereotypes of black people as lazy, uneducated, and criminal were the same in the 19th and early 20th century as it is today. Also that we cannot do anything without the white man's assistance, similar to the AA debate of this thread.

These perceptions, luckily are not held 100% by black people about ourselves, but many black people do hold them of the black demographic. I personally believe the OP is one of those black people as it is not uncommon to find black people who believe that other blacks need to....basically impress white people in order to get "better treatment." If this argument is not about AA it will be about something else in regards to black Americans.
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Old 03-17-2016, 01:26 PM
 
16,212 posts, read 10,778,077 times
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veezybell

Quote:
True. And it was a good program at first, but now it has turned into a makeshift crutch that creates resentment among white people. What about the minorities that actually earned their positions? We get looked at like we received a handout. I sleep fine at night, but it gets tiring being lumped in all the time.
Nothing about the program has changed.

The only thing that has changed is that some people, particularly white conservative males, feel that the program has negatively affected them.

I personally don't care if people think I receive a handout. Like you, I sleep fine at night.

IMO, the OP and others of similar mindset need to stop caring what white people think of them. If you have your position, do your job well and sleep fine at night like you do. We will always be lumped in with AA recipients, criminals, single parents, welfare moms, drug addicts, etc. If that is not your reality, you "check" those people and keep it moving.

As long as their ignorance and prejudice are not affecting your life, you shouldn't care what they think.
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