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I don't know what's more important to you or why...that's up to you.
Just in general, I'm referring to any decision that you want to make over your own life that you wouldn't be allowed to make. You're allowed to drink, but not to smoke marijuana. You're not free to pay for the services you want or refuse the services that the state tells you you need to pay for. There are many choices that people aren't allowed to make, but they don't really think about it.
Reminds me of that Frederick Douglass quote where he says something like "I didn't know I was a slave until I found out I couldn't do the things I wanted." (And no, I'm not saying we live in the same conditions he did)
You suggested security was more important to me than freedom for reasons all your own that I don't understand...
So I'll ask again, what freedoms that should matter to me (in your opinion) do I not have and why would the recognition that we need security to enjoy our freedom necessarily mean that I value my freedom any more or less than security?
I feel that uneasy feeling of venturing into the realm of dumb again...
Since college days right up to today, I don't recall ever having the inability to smoke marijuana, and please be specific with regard to these services I am not free to pay for, and of course we can't be free only to pay taxes for services only of our choosing, no different than back in Adams' day. Was there ever a time when paying taxes you could check the boxes only for those services you wanted your taxes to go toward?
Black people didn't have freedom back in Adams' day, again just for starters. How are we not more free today than back in that day? Not ABSOLUTELY free, but less free? Again, what freedoms do I not enjoy that should make me feel less free than I do?
Yes, I'm an anarchist. Voluntaryist to be more exact, but I don't believe anyone has the right to rule over anyone else, so anarchist works.
When I say authority, I mean the right to rule over you. That means they have the right to force you to do things against your will, or to forcefully prevent you from doing things, even when you aren't doing harm to anyone.
I could get into the other assumptions you're beginning to make, but I'd rather stay as close to the topic as possible. So......
I'm thinking I should have used the analogy I used in a previous post in the OP... Would you rather live with your parents, where they make the rules but take care of your needs, or would you rather live on your own and make your own decisions, even though you'll have nobody responsible for taking care of you? I think that's something a lot of people can relate to, and it seems like many would rather be taken care of.
Seems you have done another fine job of keeping this favorite debate of yours alive and well!
The people who prattle the most about "security" usually have the most elaborate plans for other people's lives, rights and property. And the smaller the group that can be identified as an obstacle to the Great Plan, the greater the demonization -- and likely eventual persecution.
Probably, outside the borders of a truly-free American nation; Europe seems more like what you have in mind -- and most of our forefathers came here to escape that.
Oh for the love of the preposterous...
If to suggest that security is important just like freedom seems like "prattle" to you, then you must realize it is no less accurate for me to label all your "Great Plan" bullarky as just that, right? In a word, crap.
Just take a moment to consider the issue beyond your fears of these "evil elaborate plans to control your life." Consider any country that truly has no security, where the fears of lawlessness, the police, the "freedom fighters," the gangs make it impossible to simply walk the streets without concern for your life. You see any real benefit of freedom given the lack of security in such cases?
More modern day, America is probably as "free" a nation as any on the planet and much for that reason I am proud to be an American and with no want to live anywhere else, even though I know there are people all around me here and in Europe just itching for a fight over little more than ignorance and intolerance.
I enjoy security as well, but I don't want to exchange my personal freedom for some illusive promise of security made by politicians who couldn't care less about preserving either.
“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” - Franklin
It is just as true today as it was then.
Best movie rant ever
You presume much and consider little when it comes to your apparent assumption that someone like me might want to "exchange my personal freedom for some illusive promise of security."
Seems you are mostly amped up about 20,000 No-Knock Raids, and I'm not sure where that number really comes from, but I had a look at your article about that, and I read that the "ACLU analyzed 818 records of SWAT exercises from police departments around the country in 2011 and 2012. They found that 80 percent of the time, SWAT teams were deployed to execute a search warrant..."
You know..., "back in the good old days" search warrants weren't even needed! Not too long ago, a bunch of guys wearing hoods could bust into a house of any black dude they didn't really care for and string him up in the highest tree!
Now, I have never in my life been subject to a "no-knock raid," and I don't know of anyone who has been subject to such a raid, so maybe I don't have the fears of those who might be subject to such a raid, but I've never considered my freedom and/or security in light of such an issue. What I can tell you is that I am absolutely for the insurance of correct procedure for search and seizure, leaning far more toward our personal protections in those regards than the other way around, but I am not fool enough to think there won't always be abuses just like there was plenty abuse in the "good old days" (even more).
I just happen to think we've made much progress along these lines in general over time, at least in this country anyway, and I am enjoying much freedom and a good deal of security as a result, just like the great majority of other law abiding American citizens!
I want to get an idea of what people here value more. I have my suspicions, but thought a poll would be interesting.
**NOTE: Freedom in this context means freedom from coercion, as opposed to freedom from responsibility. Some will get into semantics about what "freedom" really is, and I'm clearly defining freedom as being free to make your own decisions without anyone else threatening force against you. Freedom from responsibility would fall into the "security" category - allowing someone else to have authority over you or make decisions for you, but they will be taking on the burden of providing for you**
My personal take is that freedom should be valued more highly, and it was when the U.S. was founded. It seems as if the spirit of the founders and colonists at the time is mostly gone. We celebrate the 4th of July, Independence Day, but most people doing so would side with the British if this were happening today.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your councils or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget ye were our countrymen."
You suggested security was more important to me than freedom for reasons all your own that I don't understand...
So I'll ask again, what freedoms that should matter to me (in your opinion) do I not have and why would the recognition that we need security to enjoy our freedom necessarily mean that I value my freedom any more or less than security?
I feel that uneasy feeling of venturing into the realm of dumb again...
Since college days right up to today, I don't recall ever having the inability to smoke marijuana, and please be specific with regard to these services I am not free to pay for, and of course we can't be free only to pay taxes for services only of our choosing, no different than back in Adams' day. Was there ever a time when paying taxes you could check the boxes only for those services you wanted your taxes to go toward?
Black people didn't have freedom back in Adams' day, again just for starters. How are we not more free today than back in that day? Not ABSOLUTELY free, but less free? Again, what freedoms do I not enjoy that should make me feel less free than I do?
Alright, since you just want my opinion, I think you should want to live without a master over you. Even if that master lets you do whatever you want, I think you should have enough pride in yourself to not recognize them as your rightful master.
If someone takes 100% of what you produce, are you not their slave? What if they allow you to keep 25%? 50%? What arbitrary percentage does it cease to be slavery?
Adams and the other founders understood the same principles, but they didn't apply them 100% consistently. That's where I disagree with them. They got so much right, but they still held onto the belief in legitimate authority.
Alright, since you just want my opinion, I think you should want to live without a master over you. Even if that master lets you do whatever you want, I think you should have enough pride in yourself to not recognize them as your rightful master.
If someone takes 100% of what you produce, are you not their slave? What if they allow you to keep 25%? 50%? What arbitrary percentage does it cease to be slavery?
Adams and the other founders understood the same principles, but they didn't apply them 100% consistently. That's where I disagree with them. They got so much right, but they still held onto the belief in legitimate authority.
I am gathering from your answer that you can't or won't give me an example of what freedom I am not enjoying, that I should be enjoying. If you are explaining that I don't enjoy the freedom of not having to pay taxes, then I suppose you need explain no more (though even that I don't have to do). Again with all due respect, I think Adams and our founding fathers understood a good deal more than you do in these regards, but of course we knew before this thread was "born again," you and I would not agree about much.
In any case, you should know that I don't live my life as if there is a "master" over me, because that is not true. I live my life as an American citizen, fully aware of the related obligations, challenges and responsibilities that go with that, whether I had a direct hand in crafting those obligations and responsibilities going back to the beginning of America, I am understanding and for the most part in agreement with them.
Or..., I protest, object and don't abide. Simple as that, free to choose either way.
I am gathering from your answer that you can't or won't give me an example of what freedom I am not enjoying, that I should be enjoying. If you are explaining that I don't enjoy the freedom of not having to pay taxes, then I suppose you need explain no more (though even that I don't have to do). Again with all due respect, I think Adams and our founding fathers understood a good deal more than you do in these regards, but of course we knew before this thread was "born again," you and I would not agree about much.
In any case, you should know that I don't live my life as if there is a "master" over me, because that is not true. I live my life as an American citizen, fully aware of the related obligations, challenges and responsibilities that go with that, whether I had a direct hand in crafting those obligations and responsibilities going back to the beginning of America, I am understanding and for the most part in agreement with them.
Or..., I protest, object and don't abide. Simple as that, free to choose either way.
Taxation would be one example, sure. As I said, just having the belief that someone has the right to rule you means you aren't even free in your own mind. You do have a master over you (or masters), and just because you're allowed to vote for them doesn't mean they aren't your master anymore.
I'm glad you're willing to disobey if you disagree with a law, but that doesn't mean you're free either. Freedom means that you're free to do/not do something without being threatened with force.
Whenever I refer to law, btw, I'm referring to arbitrary laws constructed by man. If something is wrong in one state, is it somehow right if you cross an imaginary line into another where "the law" says its a right (or vice versa)?
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