Would America benefit from Finland's educational model? (solution, Hispanic, dollars)
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There's no reason why less-populated countries should perform better than highly-populated countries, whether that is in education, or healthcare, or economics.
Sure there is. Large population in first world country = large underclass and less resources per student. Also, large populations tend toward having a greater presence of dysfunctional sub-cultures.
Small population in first world country = less underclass to soak up resources. Less PC pandering to that underclass to make them "equal" on paper with other classes. More resources able to be allocated to better performing population. Likely the presence of a more homogeneous culture that can better emphasize achievement oriented habits at home and in school.
The Chinese system is quite "cruel" to students, and I don't think young Americans and their parents can take it.
When I was young in China, after we took an exam, the teacher sorted the papers according to scores, and handed them out while announcing the scores at the same time. The last student to get the paper was literally humiliated.
Even in college, the GPAs of all students of the department were posted on the wall of the dorm. This time they did not use names but student IDs. However, we knew each others' IDs. Oh they also mailed transcripts to parents, at least for the first year.
So you either work hard or grow thick skin, and most likely both,
My school was like that. I got the grades and the test scores, but I probably forgot 90% of what I 'learned'. Not recommended.
I bolded the main point that I think needs proper elaboration.
What do we mean by 'life as an adult?'
I ask because this goes back to my original point about Americans working ****ty jobs they don't care about, not getting paid enough, and spending far more time on them than is reasonable. Thinking back to how school is structured, you're there for 8 hours a day, sitting still, and doing what you're told. I can't think of a better way to prepare people the life we as Americans are living.
This comes down to the role of schools. They aren't teaching people how to think. We're taught to memorize things and do what we've been told to do, and living in a society that loves to talk about freedom, there is something almost comedic about that. Even now, as I go through college, most of my tests are done via a scanner, filling in bubbles. This does not mean I know the material. It means when I see the right answer, I recognize it, but there is no guarantee that I could come up with it without seeing it before me. There seems to be an intentional dumbing down of our schools. And I'm sure this was done with good intention; to help those who don't learn well in our single style of teaching. But rather than developing a better style, or being versatile enough to have more than one option, we've simply lowered the bar, which is a disservice to everyone. And while someone who's suffered through the American school system may be capable of sitting in an office for 8 hours and doing whatever their boss asks them, they aren't living.
And we should have a problem with this. Most of us work well more than the usual 40 hour work week, and this doesn't include work from home (which is unpaid). We're losing sleep and overly stressed, two of the biggest factors that cause health problems for us as we age. We're also, on average, relatively unhappy when compared to other European country's, who don't convince their citizens that they're life's value is depending on how much they work. The system is screwed up. But it is profitable.
Most people dismiss this as just 'being the way it is.' Any intelligent person can understand why that's stupid to say. That's only the way it is becasue we say it's the way it is. It's circular logic, which isn't even true logic. It's using itself to justify itself. Schooling is where we can start to break this cycle and create a society that is still productive, but also healthy and happy.
By life as an adult, I mean "how well is our education system preparing kids to succeed as an adult." If most Americans are stuck in miserable dead-end jobs, then it's safe to say that the education system didn't help them much. But any education system needs to prepare kids for one inevitable fact: Not everybody gets to be an President or independently wealthy or a rock star or a movie star. Some of the 300 million of us are destined for jobs that are boring, tedious and less than exciting. That's why we are paid money for working at them. Our education system should work for encouraging greatness, but at the same time preparing students for a life of plain ol' boring 40 hour work weeks and not being paid millions of dollars to do it. Our education system should teach students how to live within a budget, warn the of the dangers of credit cards and predatory lenders, how buying things like cars and houses work, etc.
I do find it very interesting that when you take the bureaucracy out of it and tell schools to do whatever it takes to improve, they do and the do it in huge ways. Look at charter and magnet schools. Look at private schools. So why do we value our massive educational bureaucracy so very much? Why not get rid of most of it?
Sure there is. Large population in first world country = large underclass and less resources bur student. Also, large populations tend toward having a greater presence of dysfunctional sub-cultures.
Small population in first world country = less underclass to soak up resources. Less PC pandering to that underclass to make them "equal" on paper with other classes. More resources able to be allocated to better performing population. Likely the presence of a more homogeneous culture that can better emphasize achievement oriented habits at home and in school.
You're thinking in nominal terms.
Yes, we have more poor. But it balances out because we also have more middle class and wealthy, and more resources.
If anything, scalability should make a large population an advantage. Proportionately, fixed costs will comprise a much smaller percentage of the budget in large countries, leaving more in the budget for variable costs.
As for homogeneity and work ethic...I and my parents are immigrants, 90% of my friends growing up were immigrants, but from all different places. The only common denominator of our background was that we weren't born in the US.
Whether Israeli, Chinese, Malaysian, Palestinian, Honduran, or Nigerian, I can't think of anyone of is whose cultures didn't emphasize education. I remember a bunch of us were joking about how literally ALL of our parents have used the line, "You got a 98%? What happened to the other 2%?"
If anything, that strong emphasis on academic achievement seems to fall by the wayside as generations become more Americanized -- ie, conform into the melted-pot average American culture, which is relatively homogeneous compared to a bunch of immigrants all together.
If it was that easy for you, you were short-changed on your education.
Required "busy work" is pointless. And the sad result is that it teaches many kids to hate school.
"Challenging" is when their kids actually learn at school. "Busy work" or work that can be completed in a few minutes before the bell rings isn't learning. It's merely performing what one already knows.
Well I turned out okay being "short changed" in an honors program lol. I basically attended school all year due to that program BTW as I was required to go to summer programs, many of which occurred on local college campuses and some out of state at college campuses where I took classes and also didn't have homework.
As stated though, I did get the worksheets, I just did them in school. Usually in lunch. Our teachers weren't excessive in homework because we took advanced courses. I worked 2 grades ahead of the general population of students in my age group. There was no need for homework.
I agree challenging is when the kids actually learn at school. I think I was thoroughly challenged as a kid in school through the 8th grade (after that it was like a boring repeat lol but the summer/college programs were cool to go to).
I also do think it is important to continually review what you already know - like doing math concepts daily and reading daily. But kids can read in their leisure time and math can be worked on daily at school.
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Originally Posted by InformedConsent
Someday, you'll realize the world isn't all about you.
The Harvard study I posted, stands. "Acting White" by earning good grades costs minorities same-race/ethnicity friends and social status.
LOl on the bold. I doubt it.
Read the link I posted. All the "studies" about "acting white" are hogwash and are not correlated in any way to achievement gap or how black kids view education. The link I posted also mentioned a study that showed that black kids actually have a much favorable view of school and doing well in school versus kids in other demographics. "Acting white" was made up in the 80s. I was a kid in the 80s and a high performing, nerdy black kid and I never experienced it. The whole phenomenon was actually based on one school in Washington, DC, which I thought interesting considering the couple self-proclaimed black posters on here who say that it occurred to them, say they went to school in DC (if memory serves the same school). I wonder if it is the school that the the original study cited in the link I posted, is based upon. IMO it may be a DC thing. I'm not from DC. My oldest kid spent the most time in school in metro Atlanta. I am from Ohio. In neither places did I ever see anything like the "acting white" phenomenon that you and others believe is true. I'm black. If it was a wide occurrence and something that ALL inner city kids dealt with, I would have dealt with it as would my siblings and nieces/nephews and cousins. None of us did.
Read the link I posted. All the "studies" about "acting white" are hogwash and are not correlated in any way to achievement gap or how black kids view education. The link I posted also mentioned a study that showed that black kids actually have a much favorable view of school and doing well in school versus kids in other demographics. "Acting white" was made up in the 80s.
Nope. Explain why minorities have fewer same-race/ethnicity friends and a lower social status among their same-race/ethnicity peers when their GPA is 3.5 or higher, as noted in the Harvard study.
That is the very definition of 'acting White' by getting good grades in school and therefore suffering the resultant social sanctions levied against them by those of their same race/ethnicity. I'm sorry you don't like it, but that's the empirical truth.
No, because every country is different. I think the best option is to force politicians to stop trying to stick their nose in the process. Yes, it wins votes, and ultimately does nothing for education.
Finland is made up mostly of Finns. If America had the same demographics as Finland, then their educational model would work here. But we don't. Why doesn't anyone ask if Finland's educational model would work in Haiti? Or Mexico? Because most people with enough sense realize that demographics matter when it comes to other countries, but for some reason want to pretend that it doesn't when it comes to the United States.
Sure there is. Large population in first world country = large underclass
Not necessarily (not in Japan for example) and in any case the problem is the underclass not the large total population.
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and less resources per student.
America spends more per student than just about anywhere and some of the highest spending is in low achieving school districts. There isn't much correlation between spending and achievment.
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Small population in first world country = less underclass to soak up resources. Less PC pandering to that underclass to make them "equal" on paper with other classes. More resources able to be allocated to better performing population.
Again, the underclass and pandering is the problem not the large overall population.
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Likely the presence of a more homogeneous culture that can better emphasize achievement oriented habits at home and in school.
Lots of countries in Africa are homogeneous. Carribean countries are both homogeneous and small. What's holding them back?
When I was in Jr. HS an acquaintance told me that (paraphrased) "I was way smarter than everyone else but not smart enough to hide it". My response, being an angry anti social SOB, was "So what?" I had to live with a drunk step father and his co-dependent wife. Coping with their idiosyncrasies shaped a lot of my attitude. Keeping his amusement park operating did not help either. While the rest of the kids were riding the miniature train I was driving or repairing it and had absolutely no choice in the matter.
IMHO Education in the South is set up to perpetuate the Plantation Society and economy where a few special people, white upper class wealthy, control the politics and economy for their own benefit by having special expensive private schools for their kids, mediocre private schools for the future white businessmen and skilled workers while delegating the Black population to underfunded and nonfunctional ghetto level schools to keep a supply of farm and city laborers available.
This culture is trying, mostly through educational policies and other social control methods, to institute this Plantation Culture on an international level. Stopping this will be the world's primary problem in the near future.
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