Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
We don't have to "let's say" any of that rubbish. That is all history. That is what segregation did.
In fact, it happens today. There are plenty of exclusive clubs and businesses today that deliberately exclude part of the potential market or price themselves far above cost necessities for the very purpose of excluding part of the potential market.
Segregation was not free market. And people keep arguing it is. It's not.
Quote:
The fact is, exclusivity is valued by enough people that the exclusive business still makes satisfactory profit.
That didn't happen. It doesn't happen today. Nor do pigs fly.
Yes some clubs do only cater to certain people. Like all white golf clubs or something of that nature. And while they're profitable businesses, they're not huge, and they're always limited. And yeah, exclusivity may work pretty well at something like a neighborhood level, or even a city level if you have 99% whites or blacks. But at the end of the day your business model doesn't scale that large.
Now imagine if Apple said, Iphones are only "white only". What the hell do you think is going to happen to Apple's business. People wouldn't support it. you're talking about large segment of the population who Apple is saying they won't sell to.
now what do you think happens to their business? It either shrinks or it dies. There is no way nothing other than these two outcomes is going to happen.
Even in the 1960s you didn't have national businesses saying "white only". They sold to everyone, hence they were big.
So even in a world where the government itself is making discrimination mandatory, in a nation where discrimination is openly tolerated, no business could ever get big with discrimination. We can talk about people like Ford or whatever, but they sold cars to anyone who could afford them, even black people.
Quote:
What happened is that businesses went to court to protect their already lucrative exclusivity. To put this back into reality, it was never illegal for white people to go wherever they wanted to go. They could go "slumming" whenever they wanted.
Local southern businesses were big in the context of their local environment. But they weren't big compared to national companies. It's just common sense. The larger my customer base is, the more money I make. businesses that want to discriminate either are going to show limited growth, and just suffocate because they can't compete. Or some large business is just going to come into their neighbhorhood and gobble them up.
Quote:
Slavery existed before government action and was well underway for a couple of centuries before government got involved at all.
Government got involved because the entire foundations of slavery was falling apart. If it was working so well, then why go to the government to help them?
... Slavery existed before government action and was well underway for a couple of centuries before government got involved at all.
Contrary to the opinions of some, folks have been advocating for Civil Rights in a nearly unbroken line from Colonial America to the present day:
Slave Rebellions: A Timeline
"Slave owners lived in fear of slave revolts, a fear which was far from unfounded: from the Amistad mutiny to the Underground Railroad, American slaves—led by themselves or with the help of abolitionists—staged many instances of revolt and resistance. Read the timeline below to learn more about the history of slave rebellions."
1663: First serious slave conspiracy in Colonial America
White servants and black slaves conspire to revolt in Gloucester County, VA, but are betrayed by a fellow servant.
... 1859: Harper’s Ferry Attack
Led by abolitionist John Brown, a group of slaves and white abolitionists stage an attack on Harper’s Ferry, Virginia. They capture the federal armory and arsenal before the insurrection is halted by local militia. Brown and the other captives are tried and executed. The raid hastens the advent of the Civil War, which starts two years later.
Stop the strawman, we're talking about American's form of slavery, not other forms. Remember people say capitalism created the need for slavery. When it is clear that profit and business efficiency is not why we have slavery in areas like human trafficking.
Not a straw man argument at all if I understood you correctly, that the likes of slavery in America is all because of government and not more natural forces. In any case, I was trying to point out that these problems have much more to do with what man can and will do regardless whether government is involved or not. Government can simply aggravate these problems or help alleviate them, depending on the government.
You don't seem to take any of this reality into account, so we waste time arguing the absurd...
Probably not the best thread for me, but that's not your doing. Don't mind me. Carry on!
Not a straw man argument at all if I understood you correctly, that the likes of slavery in America is all because of government and not more natural forces. In any case, I was trying to point out that these problems have much more to do with what man can and will do regardless whether government is involved or not. Government can simply aggravate these problems or help alleviate them, depending on the government.
You don't seem to take any of this reality into account, so we waste time arguing the absurd...
Probably not the best thread for me, but that's not your doing. Don't mind me. Carry on!
Personally, one of the worst things about discussions with absolutists of all stripes when considering reality based solutions in real time is the 'opportunity costs' involved, that is, the loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one & only one strategy, action or technique, etc is chosen.
Usually demonstrated by false dichotomies, splitting, black & white thinking or all-or-nothing thinking. Sortof like the anesthetic (mind numbing) v the aesthetic critical/creative thought patterns.
Ummm. You might want to ask tyrannosaurus rex about co-existence with a New Jersey-sized asteroid.
Celestial bodies often do not co-exist with each other.
I don't think co-existence is a very fundamental law of the universe at all, given that there are so many clear examples that co-existence is violated. Here is one, for example, of either Jupiter or an asteroid failing to alter their orbits in order to co-exist:
Coexistence is not existing forever. Coming to an end does not mean something went wrong. If a man lives for 108 years and dies a natural death or by force of nature, did he not fail to coexist? To live for 180 million years and die of a natural occurrence means dinosaurs were pretty lucky. It was once believed that dinosaurs ate themselves out of existence, now that would be a good example of a failure to coexist with plant life.
But I digress , civil right laws , noise ordinances, and many other laws are made to force us to coexist with one another.
Last edited by thriftylefty; 05-11-2016 at 06:26 PM..
Segregation was not free market. And people keep arguing it is. It's not.
Rand & Ron Paul have made the same or similar sophistical arguments. The circular logic is dizzying as well as nonsensical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by branh
Yes some clubs do only cater to certain people. Like all white golf clubs or something of that nature. And while they're profitable businesses, they're not huge, and they're always limited. And yeah, exclusivity may work pretty well at something like a neighborhood level, or even a city level if you have 99% whites or blacks. But at the end of the day your business model doesn't scale that large.
Now imagine if Apple said, Iphones are only "white only". What the hell do you think is going to happen to Apple's business. People wouldn't support it. you're talking about large segment of the population who Apple is saying they won't sell to.
now what do you think happens to their business? It either shrinks or it dies. There is no way nothing other than these two outcomes is going to happen.
Even in the 1960s you didn't have national businesses saying "white only". They sold to everyone, hence they were big.
So even in a world where the government itself is making discrimination mandatory, in a nation where discrimination is openly tolerated, no business could ever get big with discrimination. We can talk about people like Ford or whatever, but they sold cars to anyone who could afford them, even black people.
Local southern businesses were big in the context of their local environment. But they weren't big compared to national companies. It's just common sense. The larger my customer base is, the more money I make. businesses that want to discriminate either are going to show limited growth, and just suffocate because they can't compete. Or some large business is just going to come into their neighbhorhood and gobble them up.
Believing the 'free market' will solve any & all problems is just as ridiculous as believing government will do so. Absolutists, extremists, totalitarians, et cetera all require frequent reality checks.
The market sometimes rewards discrimination, other times, it punishes discrimination. 'Free market fundamentalists' use a faith-based rationale to support their belief system, begin with the faulty premise the 'free market' will solve any & all problems. & then go on to explain how the 'free market' doesn't exist & never has, although they're still waiting for the 'Savior' to arrive. Some folks get tired.
Quote:
Government got involved because the entire foundations of slavery was falling apart. If it was working so well, then why go to the government to help them?
Because the Slave Rebellions, while completely legitimate, weren't working out.
Apparently they also must've gotten tired of the libertarians telling them they weren't doing it right.
Coexistence is not existing forever. Coming to an end does not mean something went wrong. If a man lives for 108 years and dies a natural death or by force of nature, did he not fail to coexist? To live for 180 million years and die of a natural occurrence means dinosaurs were pretty lucky. It was once believed that dinosaurs ate themselves out of existence, now that would be a good example of a failure to coexist with plant life.
But I digress , civil right laws , noise ordinances, and many other laws are made to force us to coexist with one another.
But you were arguing that co-existence was a law of nature.
But you were arguing that co-existence was a law of nature.
I still think it is natural law to co-exist and when we don't catastrophe ensues. I would liken Slavery , segregation and discrimination as catastrophic events on human kind. People who believe that a stroke of the pen or some broad stroke of brush can fix "The Negro Problem" in America would have more success at bring back the dinosaurs.
Except we NEVER had a free market. If you keep using Jim Crow's south as your goto example, that wasn't the free market. That was a protected market. Free market means NO,and I have to say NOOOOO GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION.
Case 1: Free market
The way business works is like this. Let's say I have a business, and I says "I won't serve customers who have black hair". Ok, well what do other people say? "Well people with black hair need busineses and services". So I someone opens that anyone can patronize.
Now let's say we both have equal quality, but people in general not just "black haired people" kind of morally like the idea of a business that doesn't discriminate. Well guess what, not only do my competior get people with black hair's money, but a subset of anybody else.
Case 2: Protectionism
So my business will never grow, or even better yet, can't make any money or stay in business because my competitor has outdone my on every level. So how do I stay in business? Well what if I went to the government and told them to make a Law where people with non-black hair can only legally come to me. That way I can assert my discrimination, but I stay in business.
See the clear difference? I'm protected from bad business practices by the government.
I never said it was "free market". I said the free market would not have solved that problem. If it did work, the businesses that used such practices would have been done away with quickly. Jim Crow was able to continue for nearly a century because there was no big government intervention. Notice when the big government came in during the 60s, those practices were forced out, by law.
Like I said before. Businesses can always open. I was not talking about that. I was talking about the idea that issues like rights being disrespected and discrimination would have continued if the federal government would not have stepped in. Yes, new businesses would have filled the void. However, the businesses using discrimination still would have existed. Protection from bad businesses doesn't stop someone from opening a business. A person either chooses to open a business, or doesn't open one.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
