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Originally Posted by cdnirene I think the issue is the fairy tale that Americans single-handedly were responsible for the defeat of Nazi Germany. It's so disrespectful to the millions of people from other countries who died fighting: World War II death toll of all nations
That 1,076,245 number for US casualties is interesting. Where does it come from? cdnirene supplied a table of estimated deaths, military & civilian, in WWII. The US estimate - military deaths only - is 400,000. Who are the other 676,245? What are casualties - what's being counted there?
casualties=wounded and killed. from wiki...
cas·u·al·ty
Yes comrade don't forget that the Soviets made a pact with the devil and were all too happy to split Poland with him...
They were in bed with the Germans till the devil turned on them... a good commie is a dead commie!
"The losses listed here are actual deaths, hypothetical losses due to a decline in births are not included with the total dead. The distinction between military and civilian casualties caused directly by warfare and collateral damage is not always clear cut. For nations that suffered huge losses such as the Soviet Union, China, Poland, Germany, and Yugoslavia, sources can give only the total estimated population loss caused by the war and a rough estimate of the breakdown of deaths caused by military activity, crimes against humanity and war-related famine. The casualties listed here include 19 to 25 million war-related famine deaths in the USSR, China, Indonesia, Vietnam, the Philippines, India that are often omitted from other compilations of World War II casualties.[11][12] The footnotes give a detailed breakdown of the casualties and their sources, including data on the number of wounded where reliable sources are available."
(My emphasis - more @ the URL)
I understood that the number of non-fatal casualties - wounded - simply varied from country to country - in classification, estimates, or whether from actual records. Given that, I tend to look @ deaths rather than wounded, as being a more reliable statistic. If the US figure is roughly 1.5 times the number of deaths, then the number of wounded for all the other belligerents would rise accordingly, except that I would expect UK, French, German, USSR numbers to rise more proportionately to their longer time @ war (than the US), in massive numbers, & on the Eastern Front - to the death.
Russia would've fallen in 1 year or less IF the US went after them in 1945, especially after Japan was crippled.
The US/UK did the staff work on that and realized that it was completely impractical. Even assuming some politically unthinkable desperate measures - arming 100,000 Germans to fill up the ranks - it just wasn't doable. The numbers weren't there. Churchill's main concern was Stalin realizing his strength and deciding to go on the offensive - the US/UK troops would be hard pressed to even hold.
And there's no reason to believe that the Red Army would sit on their hands while the US/UK built up and reorganized for offensive operations on the scale we're talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan
WHAT WW 3? Russia ALMOST got took out by Germany and the US was a MUCH bigger country in 1945 with NO damage to its cities. IMHO bomb Moscow into the Stone Age even crazy Stalin would've surrendered.
Stalin was already completely prepared to abandon Moscow. (Not as if there isn't historical precedence.) The war production was already moved to the far side of the Urals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan
Word was the Atom Bomb was supposed to be used on Berlin but, Hitler gave up too soon.
After Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there was exactly one more implosion core available for the rest of 1945. Few people realize how much nuclear weapons resembled science experiments back then - they were hand-built, individually crafted and tested, with no standardization or exchangeable parts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-310
The Tiger was a more powerful vehicle than the T-34. The 88 mounted on the Tiger could brew up a T-34 at 2000 meters. The 34 had to get much closer.
True. Of course, the likelihood of the Tiger being at a roadside with engine trouble 10 miles away from the fight was pretty damn high, too. As I've said before, comparing the merits of tanks depends on your perspective - are you commanding a tank or an armored division?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan
I may be wrong but; Russia had no real way to shoot our bombers out of the sky; especially IF our people kept hitting their oil supplies which would've grounded their tanks and trucks along with airplanes.
Russia's air force had been up against the absolute elite of the Luftwaffe and held their own. The Germans were desperate enough that they kept their aces flying rather than withdraw them and use them as instructors. Which is short-sighted, of course, but the German planning goals had turned less "Roll on Moscow" and more "Postpone complete collapse for another 48 hours".
The US/UK did the staff work on that and realized that it was completely impractical. Even assuming some politically unthinkable desperate measures - arming 100,000 Germans to fill up the ranks - it just wasn't doable. The numbers weren't there. Churchill's main concern was Stalin realizing his strength and deciding to go on the offensive - the US/UK troops would be hard pressed to even hold.
And there's no reason to believe that the Red Army would sit on their hands while the US/UK built up and reorganized for offensive operations on the scale we're talking about.
Stalin was already completely prepared to abandon Moscow. (Not as if there isn't historical precedence.) The war production was already moved to the far side of the Urals.
After Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there was exactly one more implosion core available for the rest of 1945. Few people realize how much nuclear weapons resembled science experiments back then - they were hand-built, individually crafted and tested, with no standardization or exchangeable parts.
True. Of course, the likelihood of the Tiger being at a roadside with engine trouble 10 miles away from the fight was pretty damn high, too. As I've said before, comparing the merits of tanks depends on your perspective - are you commanding a tank or an armored division?
Russia's air force had been up against the absolute elite of the Luftwaffe and held their own. The Germans were desperate enough that they kept their aces flying rather than withdraw them and use them as instructors. Which is short-sighted, of course, but the German planning goals had turned less "Roll on Moscow" and more "Postpone complete collapse for another 48 hours".
Agree with everything except the Luftwaffe evaluation. The kill ratio of the Luftwaffe compared to the Soviet air force was 10,000 to 750 in Barbarosa. It was a complete slaughter.
When tabulating "kills", those scores in the west were more highly prized, as the quality of the pilots was much better. Toward the end of the war, Soviet pilots and aircraft improved tremendously, while the German Luftwaffe was depleted of experienced pilots. The Me 262 was only deployed in small numbers such that it had minimal impact on the war, despite a marked advantage in speed.
Yes, it is true. USSR defeated Nazis, but US spared Europe from ending under Soviet control. If US had not gone in, all of Europe would have become Soviet territory.
A lot of people have failed to mention the Artic convoys that provided the USSR with 4,000,000 tons of supplies. As well as tanks and aircraft, these included less sensational but still vital items like trucks,tractors,telephone wire, railway engines and even boots.
Agree with everything except the Luftwaffe evaluation. The kill ratio of the Luftwaffe compared to the Soviet air force was 10,000 to 750 in Barbarosa. It was a complete slaughter.
When tabulating "kills", those scores in the west were more highly prized, as the quality of the pilots was much better. Toward the end of the war, Soviet pilots and aircraft improved tremendously, while the German Luftwaffe was depleted of experienced pilots. The Me 262 was only deployed in small numbers such that it had minimal impact on the war, despite a marked advantage in speed.
I should have qualified that statement, agreed. Tabulated across 1941-1945, the Soviet air force lost tremendous numbers (kept coming, though). But the Soviet Air Force in 1945 had a lot of people who'd survived against the Luftwaffe's finest. They would not be a trivial problem in case of an US/UK push eastbound.
I don't believe they ever claimed they won the war single handed, but their involvement shortened the war by several years or more.
I don't disagree that American involvement shortened the war.
I was posting on an American political board from 2000-2003, the only foreigner posting around the time the Iraqi war started. Posters were aged 40 plus. Remember "freedom fries" and Francophobia?
There was lots of trashing of the French by many posters who were in favor of the Iraqi war. Yes, those posters claimed America won WWII and gave that as a reason why they were bashing France for not getting involved in the Iraqi war. Nasty comments.
Of course those same posters also seemed convinced that Iraq was responsible for 9/11 and that there was proof Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.
And hundreds if not thousands of German women and girls paid the price.
I def agree but; Germany DID bring a LOT of it on its own people with the way the Nazis acted in Russia.
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from wiki...
Blows against the empire
