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I listened to someone on the radio talk briefly about the open border philosophy of the Libertarian party, but the interviewer did not ask the question I wanted to know about this issue....
How does this work with the Libertarian philosophy of social programs??
If social programs were cut drastically would people south of the border still be attracted to living in America? (Only for economic means, not wanting to assimilate to become an American)
If social programs were cut drastically, would more Americans be fighting for these jobs that would be also open to non citizens? Would Americans have priority for taking the jobs, or do the Libertarians not care about citizenship at all? Does free market economics drive most of Libertarian values and trump national sovereignty?
The ideal for the libertarians is that their social reforms would happen concurrently with their open border policies, which they think would work out fine and discourage freeloaders from entering our lands. The problem is, that will never happen, but they are willing to take the open borders alone, even without the social reforms, figuring it's better than nothing. Problem is, it's actually much worse than nothing and can be absolutely devastating to our economy and to the economic stability of the people who are already here. Some libertarians either refuse to acknowledge that or accept that as the price we must pay for advancing at least part of their agenda.
Last edited by Fifty Seven; 06-03-2016 at 10:43 AM..
I listened to someone on the radio talk briefly about the open border philosophy of the Libertarian party, but the interviewer did not ask the question I wanted to know about this issue....
How does this work with the Libertarian philosophy of social programs??
If social programs were cut drastically would people south of the border still be attracted to living in America? (Only for economic means, not wanting to assimilate to become an American)
If social programs were cut drastically, would more Americans be fighting for these jobs that would be also open to non citizens? Would Americans have priority for taking the jobs, or do the Libertarians not care about citizenship at all? Does free market economics drive most of Libertarian values and trump national sovereignty?
Thanks!
One - your premise assumes most immigrants come to the US for social programs, which is false to begin with. So yes, immigrants would still seek to live in America - purely based on what they perceived being the "American Dream" and factored in, that a percentage of immigrants come from economical and political unstable countries and regardless of the rhetoric we see on CD - America is the most political and economical stable country in the world.
Two - Americans on average, do not seek low paying jobs - which is what you're referencing. So no, just because the theory you stated, there won't be a noticeable influx of American's seeking the lower pay jobs vs before.
Three - The LP stance is that you would provide work visas to those who want to stay here and work. The ones who refuse, will be deported to the laws that are not currently enforced (and haven't been in a long time). Simply, enforce the current laws vs providing loopholes and disregarding the laws. Work visas could provide a path to citizenship, if they opt for it..either way, they're a working body and adding to the economy via other means.
Four - The last comment about libertarian values and national sovereignty makes zero sense. free markets is sovereignty...allowing the free market to dictate the current economic state, market values, etc...vs having DC try to regulate everything and screwing it up.
I'm by no means a registered big L libertarian - but that's my dumbed down version of what i perceive to be open borders. There's a few smart registered Libertarians hovering on CD that could expand upon my statement....as well as other non Libertarians that tend to agree more with LP priniciples...such as Tigerlily, Pknopp, etc...
This is an excerpt from the Libertarian Party platform. I think it does a great job of explaining their position.
We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into our country of foreign nationals who pose a credible threat to security, health or property.
One - your premise assumes most immigrants come to the US for social programs, which is false to begin with. So yes, immigrants would still seek to live in America - purely based on what they perceived being the "American Dream" and factored in, that a percentage of immigrants come from economical and political unstable countries and regardless of the rhetoric we see on CD - America is the most political and economical stable country in the world.
Two - Americans on average, do not seek low paying jobs - which is what you're referencing. So no, just because the theory you stated, there won't be a noticeable influx of American's seeking the lower pay jobs vs before.
Three - The LP stance is that you would provide work visas to those who want to stay here and work. The ones who refuse, will be deported to the laws that are not currently enforced (and haven't been in a long time). Simply, enforce the current laws vs providing loopholes and disregarding the laws. Work visas could provide a path to citizenship, if they opt for it..either way, they're a working body and adding to the economy via other means.
Four - The last comment about libertarian values and national sovereignty makes zero sense. free markets is sovereignty...allowing the free market to dictate the current economic state, market values, etc...vs having DC try to regulate everything and screwing it up.
I'm by no means a registered big L libertarian - but that's my dumbed down version of what i perceive to be open borders. There's a few smart registered Libertarians hovering on CD that could expand upon my statement....as well as other non Libertarians that tend to agree more with LP priniciples...such as Tigerlily, Pknopp, etc...
This is an excerpt from the Libertarian Party platform. I think it does a great job of explaining their position.
We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into our country of foreign nationals who pose a credible threat to security, health or property.
That's a complete disaster waiting to happen. Libertarians are nutty, they aren't actually Libertarians, they are Anarchists.
That's a complete disaster waiting to happen. Libertarians are nutty, they aren't actually Libertarians, they are Anarchists.
Libertarians believe that terms like "free market", "small government" and "personal liberty" are more than marketing buzzwords. Why should free market principles end at an imaginary line on a map?
Libertarians believe that terms like "free market", "small government" and "personal liberty" are more than marketing buzzwords. Why should free market principles end at an imaginary line on a map?
"Why should a theoretical ideological construct have to alter itself to accommodate the restrictions of reality when attempting to implement it in a real world situation?" is how that reads to me.
From buzzwords to dogma without stopping to rest anywhere in between.
One - your premise assumes most immigrants come to the US for social programs, which is false to begin with. So yes, immigrants would still seek to live in America - purely based on what they perceived being the "American Dream" and factored in, that a percentage of immigrants come from economical and political unstable countries and regardless of the rhetoric we see on CD - America is the most political and economical stable country in the world.
Two - Americans on average, do not seek low paying jobs - which is what you're referencing. So no, just because the theory you stated, there won't be a noticeable influx of American's seeking the lower pay jobs vs before.
I was talking about the the ones who ARE knowledgeable about and seek the social hand outs. (and yes, word of mouth is the best advertisement) Not the ones who want to assimilate like I mentioned.
I don't have a fancy degree and have been working in the service industry all my adult life and have worked closely with Spanish speaking immigrants. I didn't "seek" it, it's what was available to me when I needed to work.
I'm just asking questions here based on listening to someone's views on Libertarians here. So please excuse my premises, theories and subtle references.
The ideal for the libertarians is that their social reforms would happen concurrently with their open border policies, which they think would work out fine and discourage freeloaders from entering our lands. The problem is, that will never happen, but they are willing to take the open borders alone, even without the social reforms, figuring it's better than nothing. Problem is, it's actually much worse than nothing and can be absolutely devastating to our economy and to the economic stability of the people who are already here. Some libertarians either refuse to acknowledge that or accept that as the price we must pay for advancing at least part of their agenda.
Hmmm... that to me would make no sense. Wouldn't that ultimately create conditions that might have the opposite affect? Isn't breaking dependence on government one of the core goals of the Libertarians?
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