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Am I, as a black woman, not allowed by you to have my own thoughts in relation to both her comments and the issue of illegal immigration??
Are only people who agree with you allowed to have their "own thoughts?"
I didn't say she was "manipulated by some white man" I said that I felt that her views are based upon white media's pushing the idea that blacks are "victims" of illegal immigration. Her views actually are influenced by that narrative.
Are you calling me or her an Uncle Tom? FWIW both of us are women so can't be uncles or Toms (unless we have one of those envogue unisex versions of Tom). I also have never called her or anyone on this forum an Uncle Tom.
And FWIW I think a majority of people in general are guillible and naive and ignorant about most things, and a large amount of non-black people are especially guillable, ignorant and naive about black Americans. However, I don't automatically think any black people are inferior to me nor do I feel anyone in general is inferior to me until they prove otherwise. I think nothing poorly of the women in the video either. I disagree with her, disagreeing does not entail I see her as an "Uncle Tom" or as "inferior" to me. IMO you are pretty funny. I can judge anyone I want to regardless of whether they are black or not. And I also am VERY well aware that black people more often than not disagree on most political topics like illegal immigration and school vouchers and practically every other topic of political discussion. I can agree to disagree and STILL respect that person.
Thanks for saying I have a great mind .
Nice try.
You said "has been swayed".
Like she isn't capable of looking at the facts and forming an independent conclusion without being swayed.
You can agree or disagree with whatever and whomever you choose, but just remember every time you disagree it doesn't have to be because the other black was "swayed" or because they were "gullible and naive".
Some people aren't obsessed with race anymore, they see themselves and others as fellow human beings.
I disagree. Look at Mississippi. Very few illegals of any ethnicity there, and Blacks have astronomical unemployment rates in that state. What I am saying is that Blacks still have to deal with job discrimination no matter if the illegals are here are not.
And if you don't think Blacks are not taking a stand, look at California. Alot of Blacks are leaving that state.
However, my own point is this. I feel that either way, Blacks are screwed no matter what. I am against illegal immigration in principle. I am, however, very cynical. Considering the history of job discrimination against Blacks, and how it can still take place, I would say Blacks would still have to compete for jobs. I look at it like this. Relative to other groups, Blacks are the most disliked of any group. If people will hire you only because they have no other option, then that shows how disliked a group is. I've heard people on CD and in person say they prefer hiring Hispanics because "they work hard". Reagan, a Republican, tried the "hard work" and "family values" thing to bring Hispanics into the Republican Party. He tried no such thing for Blacks.
You can't compare the economically depressed south to the rest of the nation. Those who claim Hispanics work harder are actually referring to those here illegally and it's not that they work harder it is just they work cheaper and allow themselves to be exploited.
Either way black Americans are just as obligated to back our laws just as anyone else is and should do so without bringing some personal agenda into it.
I often take criticism of Blacks very personal. However, on this, I can agree. The best thing Blacks can do for themselves is start more businesses. There are too many educated, talented Blacks for there to be a relatively (keyword "relatively") low amount of businesses started by Blacks. We are starting businesses, and it is growing. However, I would say stepping it up more would be a good thing.
Black people actually are the top demographic in the nation for business creation.
According to Forbes there was a 75% increase in black owned businesses in the US from 1997 to 2015.
Amongst black women there was a 322% increase.
FWIW, I'm a black woman and at one point, I did run my own business and I am in the process of starting another business. Ironically, I was a consultant in Atlanta and I focused on increasing the amount of black owned businesses getting contracts with public agencies so I am pretty well aware especially in the metro that there are a lot of MBEs in that area and they are growing very fast.
I live in the Midwest currently, back from where I'm from and people aren't aware that Chicago and Detroit are two cities that are in the top 5 for black businesses in the country.
Blacks just can't trust whites on this issue. For one, Hispanics are gonna win it anyway. And when they do, you'll forget that so-called alliance with blacks and join hands with the Hispanics and kick black folks right in the ass as if we're stray dogs.
History proves it. Sorry.
Meh...if blacks were so hurt by illegal immigration, whites wouldn't care as much as they pretend to. Since when have whites cared about blacks losing jobs? Hell, when have they cared about us losing ANYTHING?
Like, never.
Yeah, well...too late.
Seriously?
There have been numerous whites who have committed their time, and sometimes their lives, to assisting blacks and other groups and equality in general. Every little law, statute, reg, etc, that assists blacks and people in general were created and approved by whites. It is these things that have turned the US into the number one destination in the world for people escaping from their s**t hole countries, that includes blacks in many African countries. Obama, a black guy, would not have been elected if not for whites.
But yet you sit there and make those absurd statements?
No one, and I mean no one forces many blacks to behave and act the way they do to bring such criticism upon themselves as a group. It is not whites who are going around in black neighborhoods murdering each other and committing other crimes. That is all upon blacks.
As for the immigration issue; it should be people in any area of high unemployment who are getting moved around to places of employment like they do with immigrants (legal and illegal). Why is it there are entire food processing plants in TN made up of Somalian immigrants when blacks in Memphis have such a high unemployment rate? Why are there buses taking immigrants across states to work in various agriculture businesses when there are Americans in areas with such high unemployment? Why is there housing, electricity, and water provided for immigrant farm workers, in which the conditions are monitored by the US gov? Why are Syrian refugees getting set up with such a great head start in the US with a lavish relocation assistance package from the US gov?
You can't compare the economically depressed south to the rest of the nation. Those who claim Hispanics work harder are actually referring to those here illegally and it's not that they work harder it is just they work cheaper and allow themselves to be exploited.
Either way black Americans are just as obligated to back our laws just as anyone else is and should do so without bringing some personal agenda into it.
On the bold, I agree with you. I also do feel that as Americans black people should "back our laws" on immigration.
I don't believe any of us who stated we are black have said anything opposing black people "backing our laws" on immigration, only that it does not benefit us to get involved in the "fight" regarding illegal immigration.
We are still discriminated against in hiring so it makes no difference to use the "work" excuse to bring us into the fold. Both desert detroiter and myself have stated that it is better that black people not work in menial jobs to begin with and to aim for positions of which cannot be given to illegals.
I said that it is better to focus on that and on business creation and that my only concern was in regards to school quality of overburdened districts.
I especially would support a re-defining of birthright citizenship to being one parent being an American citizen at the birth of his/her child. Also, I agree with desert detroiter and others in that we cannot possible deport all the illegals in the country. I personally think it is stupid to believe a "wall" will stop illegal immigration either and that I do feel an amnesty would be sufficient as long as it is passed with a revision of birthright citizenship.
How is any of that not backing laws we currently have on the books.
I will state again though that I personally do not want to align myself with people who speak in negative racial rhetoric against Latinos. Latinos/hispanics ARE NOT the only "illegal immigrants" in this country and I personally don't like illegal immigrants being here under the radar. it think it is dangerous from a national security standpoint especially. However no on on the right is offering any viable solutions IMO that would be a compromise with the left. I am a moderate independent and ironically, I actually have been personally affected by illegal immigration (my child's identity was stolen by an illegal immigrant) so I do not "support" them in any way. I also don't support racist rhetoric or idiotic ideas and I won't align myself with either racism or idiocy.
Given the current circumstances? I'd have to agree, but more specifically it isn't in the best interests of the black poor/working class to support immigration reform.
For blacks who have ascended up the pipeline away from low skilled laborious jobs with education, hard work, family planning and little bit of luck--it doesn't really make much of a difference. They aren't competing for the same jobs or living in the same neighborhoods as illegal immigrants from Mexico.
As for the black poor/working class is concerned--many of them have been displaced both geographically and in certain jobs for immigrants who are willing to work for lower wages and who also come into the country and into their neighborhoods unchecked. But to be quite honest and hard on my own people--many of them shouldn't even be in that position of vulnerability.
We've been here for over 400 years, since before this country was formally established...there really isn't any excuse that a sizable number of us should even be competing with poor illegal immigrants for any type of job.
It isn't in the interest of the poor/working class segment of the Black population to support illegal immigration. I know this being a middle class Black person who is a professional. In my case, I'm not competing for an unskilled job. I went to college and graduated so that I wouldn't have to do that. My father is a college-educated professional as well. He isn't competing with illegals for his line of work. It is the poor/working class sector that is competing.
For the poor/working class Blacks, this pattern has been ongoing. Companies go for the lowest bidder or the one who can put up enough of a fight to where such companies have no choice but to accept.
We have been here for a long time. And for most of that time, we've been treated as the unwanted step-children. We've been hated and unwanted, especially after slavery ended. Immigrants haven't had it easy either. There was a time when "No Irish Need Apply" was commonplace. On the other hand, there has been a preference to hire immigrants over Blacks. In some cases, Blacks were brought in as strike breakers if immigrants unionized. There have also been immigrants who have turned against Blacks. Truth is, Blacks have been a much hated population for most of the time we've been here. I feel like even if immigrants weren't here, it would not matter. Blacks have always had a precarious position in this country.
There have been numerous whites who have committed their time, and sometimes their lives, to assisting blacks and other groups and equality in general. Every little law, statute, reg, etc, that assists blacks and people in general were created and approved by whites. It is these things that have turned the US into the number one destination in the world for people escaping from their s**t hole countries, that includes blacks in many African countries. Obama, a black guy, would not have been elected if not for whites.
But yet you sit there and make those absurd statements?
No one, and I mean no one forces many blacks to behave and act the way they do to bring such criticism upon themselves as a group. It is not whites who are going around in black neighborhoods murdering each other and committing other crimes. That is all upon blacks.
As for the immigration issue; it should be people in any area of high unemployment who are getting moved around to places of employment like they do with immigrants (legal and illegal). Why is it there are entire food processing plants in TN made up of Somalian immigrants when blacks in Memphis have such a high unemployment rate? Why are there buses taking immigrants across states to work in various agriculture businesses when there are Americans in areas with such high unemployment? Why is there housing, electricity, and water provided for immigrant farm workers, in which the conditions are monitored by the US gov? Why are Syrian refugees getting set up with such a great head start in the US with a lavish relocation assistance package from the US gov?
Just had to lol on the bold and say "thanks dear white savior" (lol, you really have a white savior complex to think that whites all willy nilly just decided to be soooooo generous and "give" black people so much stuff. The fact that you even had to mention "equality" is proof of what dd said in that white people did not want to "give" equality to black people. Many still do not. And what he stated prior to is true, 99% of all that you are referring to was actually done by black people, not whites and their generosity. If those oh so gracious whites had not been shamed and forced to look acknowledge our country's injustices by black people, nothing would ever have been done to "assist" black people via legislation.
The rest of your post on black people, again reeks of racial bias. "Criticism" was placed on blacks for centuries before blacks murdered each other or committed crimes and criticisms regarding criminality and murder were placed on blacks by white domestic terrorist who lynched and beat and raped black people regularly so those criticisms from white society, for me, fall on deaf ears.
On your string of questions, you should look into those communities of which you are concerned. I have actually worked with Somalian refugees before and I don't see them as a threat to me as a black person and I don't want to work in a chicken plan or some other disgusting manual labor job and would advise other black Americans to not work in those fields. That is something our people did 100 years ago and there are better paying and more comfortable positions to work toward today if you put your mind to it. I personally don't think Syrian refugees are in a position that is "better" than black Americans either. They get one year of assistance via a non-profit group (my area has seen quite a few Syrian refugees over the years) and they are eligible for foodstamps, welfare, and other social services programs that black people are eligible for to if they fall on hard times. It is my belief that black people should strive for better education, careers/businesses and not even consider using social safety nets. Migrant farm workers IMO should have decent housing. They are performing a job necessary for greater America to have decently priced food and the reason for Migrants and migrant housing is because many people don't want to work in the fields anymore. Migrants are legal immigrants, as are Syrians, as are Somalians and IMO, again, this whole conversation is one where you are trying to get me, as a black American to buy into racial bias and racism against other groups of people.
I want no part in that even though I do not support illegal immigration. I won't support or work with people, politicians, or organizations that paint various immigrant groups with a negative broad stroke and especially not when those same people, politicians, and organizations view me and my organizations as a black American with equal vile and contempt as illegal immigrants and refugees.
Like she isn't capable of looking at the facts and forming an independent conclusion without being swayed.
You can agree or disagree with whatever and whomever you choose, but just remember every time you disagree it doesn't have to be because the other black was "swayed" or because they were "gullible and naive".
Some people aren't obsessed with race anymore, they see themselves and others as fellow human beings.
Swayed based on media....
Most people's ideas are swayed one way or another based on the media that they consume.
Again, I think most people are naive and guillible (and ignorant) regardless of race/ethnicity. That is my personal view and I'm sticking with it .
I was "swayed" into that opinion/view based on media and my perception of people around me in various avenues (both online and in real life).
I also am not "obsessed" with race. However, the topic was a racial topic. Am I not supposed to offer a view based on race when the topic is one that is racial?
I have posted on these forums a long time in various threads, not just racial ones and I have never started a "race" thread like the ones around here who truly are "obsessed" with race.
ETA: I also have always stated on the forum that there is only one race - the human race. People have argued with me that that is not true lol. That is one of the reasons why I believe that a majority of all people are ignorant and naive and guillible. I especially think that people today are very guillible and naive. Ignorance is a constant in the human experience, but common sense IMO is lacking in our society today and we can see evidence of that via how naive and guillible people are becoming in regards to believing everything they read on the internet or see in some random youtube video. I also have been labeled "PC" on these forums due to me being candid about racial issues from a black perspective (and my perspective is not "the" only black perspective). The whole use of the term "PC" now has been redefined by our media outlets and even though you seemed to think I was not PC with my comments in that I was harsh about the OP and whites in general. People today naively believe media outlets when they use "PC" as only being about black people. And FWIW, I have been in many discussions where I disagreed with practically all of of the self-proclaimed black posters around here - even dd who I agree with on this particular issue and green_mariner who I agree with on the points he made. IRL and online I am very not PC as I don't care who I offend with my views or language. That said, I respect both posters and even yourself as we are all humans worthy of respect. Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you see them as inferior. I actually respect people who know how to disagree in a mature fashion and not get overly offended by something I say. Maturity and the ability to disagree cordially is also something I feel is lacking in our society today and it may offend but FWIW, I felt that way about this very exchange with you. My comment wasn't even directed toward you initially yet you chose to try to lecture me about a forum post where you insinuated I felt that Yvette was inferior to me (which I don't I actually was familiar with her prior to seeing the video). It was pretty immature IMO.
Last edited by residinghere2007; 07-05-2016 at 10:55 AM..
Just had to lol on the bold and say "thanks dear white savior" (lol, you really have a white savior complex to think that whites all willy nilly just decided to be soooooo generous and "give" black people so much stuff. The fact that you even had to mention "equality" is proof of what dd said in that white people did not want to "give" equality to black people. Many still do not. And what he stated prior to is true, 99% of all that you are referring to was actually done by black people, not whites and their generosity. If those oh so gracious whites had not been shamed and forced to look acknowledge our country's injustices by black people, nothing would ever have been done to "assist" black people via legislation.
This is an example of your messed up mentality, your forever "I am a victim." I never stated whites were saviors, however, I did point out the fact numerous whites have promoted equality and have even lost their lives in pursuit of this.
Of course some whites did not want to give equality, however, many whites did, the poster I responded to seems to brush this off. Reality is, if all whites really hated blacks, they would have just either executed all of them or shipped them back to Africa, and there would be nothing anyone could do about it. But fact is many whites did not view blacks that way, and many whites contributed and still do contribute in pursuit of equality.
Blacks never had significant political power in the US and still do not, they only make up 14% of the population, any law benefiting blacks that is enacted is due to whites who support the law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
The rest of your post on black people, again reeks of racial bias. "Criticism" was placed on blacks for centuries before blacks murdered each other or committed crimes and criticisms regarding criminality and murder were placed on blacks by white domestic terrorist who lynched and beat and raped black people regularly so those criticisms from white society, for me, fall on deaf ears.
So, because some whites 100 years ago did somethings, that to you is justification for why blacks commit crimes against each other now? More blacks are murdered by each other in a couple of years than were killed by the KKK in its entire existence, yet you still want to place some sort of responsibility on actions committed years ago, in which hardly anyone alive today was a witness to, let alone part of? Sounds like you are just excusing actions is all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
On your string of questions, you should look into those communities of which you are concerned. I have actually worked with Somalian refugees before and I don't see them as a threat to me as a black person and I don't want to work in a chicken plan or some other disgusting manual labor job and would advise other black Americans to not work in those fields. That is something our people did 100 years ago and there are better paying and more comfortable positions to work toward today if you put your mind to it. I personally don't think Syrian refugees are in a position that is "better" than black Americans either. They get one year of assistance via a non-profit group (my area has seen quite a few Syrian refugees over the years) and they are eligible for foodstamps, welfare, and other social services programs that black people are eligible for to if they fall on hard times. It is my belief that black people should strive for better education, careers/businesses and not even consider using social safety nets. Migrant farm workers IMO should have decent housing. They are performing a job necessary for greater America to have decently priced food and the reason for Migrants and migrant housing is because many people don't want to work in the fields anymore. Migrants are legal immigrants, as are Syrians, as are Somalians and IMO, again, this whole conversation is one where you are trying to get me, as a black American to buy into racial bias and racism against other groups of people.
So, you feel you are above actual work? You think it is better for people to sit around unemployed than to actually go out and work, because you feel the job is beneath them? What in the hell does 100 years ago have to do with a person's status today? Did every black person trace their roots back and find their great grandfather worked in a chicken processing plant, so therefore that is justification to remain unemployed now?
You are stating to blacks "do not work, it is better to be unemployed", yea, great advice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
I want no part in that even though I do not support illegal immigration. I won't support or work with people, politicians, or organizations that paint various immigrant groups with a negative broad stroke and especially not when those same people, politicians, and organizations view me and my organizations as a black American with equal vile and contempt as illegal immigrants and refugees.
You view your own race with vile and contempt, all you think of them as a group who cannot do work because it is beneath them, who justify criminal behavior, and who should view whites with distaste, dismissing the effort given by many whites in assisting blacks to be equal.
According to Forbes there was a 75% increase in black owned businesses in the US from 1997 to 2015.
Amongst black women there was a 322% increase.
FWIW, I'm a black woman and at one point, I did run my own business and I am in the process of starting another business. Ironically, I was a consultant in Atlanta and I focused on increasing the amount of black owned businesses getting contracts with public agencies so I am pretty well aware especially in the metro that there are a lot of MBEs in that area and they are growing very fast.
I live in the Midwest currently, back from where I'm from and people aren't aware that Chicago and Detroit are two cities that are in the top 5 for black businesses in the country.
I know that Blacks have the fastest rate of business growth. I was talking about "relative" terms. Relative to other groups, we still have some way to go to catch up the raw number of businesses started.
I did try to start my own business. It never got off the ground. Currently, I have work, and it's good. I say we just need to have MORE businesses started.
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