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There should be no public welfare,period. What you propose just makes the schemes more expensive and does nothing to address the immorality of them.
Why should be people be given other people's money?
I do support some form of public welfare. You need to realize that in the world, some people are just truly useless - they have no skills, no motivation and no money. They are the leech of our society but nonetheless, they exist in quite large numbers. I am perfectly fine with paying them and keep them at peace as long as they aren't allowed to vote or reproduce.
Unfortunately, the liberals have established a vicious cycle for those people - they get welfare for not working, the more children they have the more welfare, the more willingness to vote for the Democrats, the more votes the Democrats get and the more taxes we must pay.
I do support some form of public welfare. You need to realize that in the world, some people are just truly useless - they have no skills, no motivation and no money. They are the leech of our society but nonetheless, they exist in quite large numbers. I am perfectly fine with paying them and keep them at peace as long as they aren't allowed to vote or reproduce.
Unfortunately, the liberals have established a vicious cycle for those people - they get welfare for not working, the more children they have the more welfare, the more willingness to vote for the Democrats, the more votes the Democrats get and the more taxes we must pay.
I agree, there are humans out there with no talent. However FREEDOM means everybody has freedom. What you propose is not FREEDOM.
I always assumed right wingers were gun ho about freedom.
I am glad you at least accept that working for another human is a form of slavery.
No, I don't. Once again, slaves do not have the freedom of choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658
I do not disagree with the concept of capitalism. That is what works at this time in history. I understand that capitalists rent your labor instead of owning you. Sure, you want to be rented by the boss and you are willing to donate a part of your productivity to increase the profit margin of the boss. You may do this voluntarily, but you cannot deny that the boss makes money with your productivity, The boss cashes your productivity, pays you a small fraction of your productivity, and the rest is profit.
Why shouldn't the boss cash in on my productivity? At the end of the day, the employer is the one taking on all the risks. If I lose my job, I can work for another employer. If the employer loses, they go bankrupt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658
Folks in Northern Europe have more freedom than you do. Watch the video of the American talking about working conditions in Norway. A simple grocery store clerk makes enough money to vacation in the US for a month.
No, they do not. Having leisure time is not freedom. We all have the freedom of choice to not work or work less.
I have been to many many countries in the world, no country in the world has more freedom than USA, not even on par, even though our freedom gets less and less thanks to both parties, particularly the Democrats.
You continue to assume that the government in places like Norway controls your life. Norwegians actually have more freedom than you and me. Just because they get free health care and college does not mean they are slaves. Yes, they have high taxes, but the average person in Norway earns much more than the average person in the USA.
You are correct when you say renting your body and efforts to another human is done on a voluntary basis. But, you really have little choice here. Not everybody is Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. The sad truth is that if you do not voluntarily rent your body to the boss you will not be able to feed your family or put a roof over your head. And your boss does not pay you for all your productivity. You only get paid for a portion of your productivity. The rest is profit for the other human that rented you to work for HIM. That is a sophisticated form of slavery that is actually cheaper than slavery in the old days.
Don't get me wrong I am a believer of capitalism because there is no other better system at this time in history. The only difference is that I do not rationalize as you do. I see capitalism for what it is.
The citizens of Norway are owners of 65% of their oil. The citizens of the USA are owners of 0% of their oil. Guess who has a better standard of living?
It is quite possible to believe in social programs and be incredibly capitalistic.
You have every choice. We all have the ability to make something of ourselves. When people say not everyone can be the next Bill Gates that is an attempt to justify not living to your full potential. It's a crutch to justify why you should live in a welfare state where the government provides for you.
I do very well in my career, and up until recently it was solely by working for someone else and not because I had my own business. BECAUSE of capitalism, I found a niche that no one was in and opened my own side business. I have the ability to set my pricing as I see fit (within what the market will bear) and to reap the benefits from the profits I make. I don't have anyone else telling me what I have to produce or worry with the gov't interfering in my business because it is legal and I pay my taxes.
I've never said the Norwegian gov't controls all aspects of the citizens lives. I said it isn't the utopia that you think it is. And it IS a nanny state, so they do control more than you realize. They don't have more freedom than we do. They have less decisions to make because they're made for them. Therefore when you see them out and about on vacations it isn't because they're more free. It's because they're doing it on the backs of everyone else.
Norway is a nanny state. I'll let you do the research so as to keep the post manageable, but they have divisions that operate as their own government, complete with the ability to take things away from you without fair trial (there's no trial at all). Look up their version of CPS.....
Both Sweden and Denmark have had to roll back their subsidies because so many abused the welfare system and showed an eroding work ethic. Of course people work less and get paid more. And the country is paying for it. Norway has managed to maintain their welfare state longer because of their oil fund. It is now being spent towards paying for the welfare it gives to the country. This is damaging their economy.
"Norway predicts it will for the first time need to withdraw cash from its $820 billion sovereign wealth fund as western Europe’s biggest oil exporter uses a record chunk of its petroleum revenue to cover budget holes and stimulate the economy.
The minority coalition plans to spend 208 billion kroner ($25.2 billion) of its oil wealth next year, topping the 204 billion kroner it predicts it will receive from offshore oil and gas fields, according to the 2016 budget. That implies a withdrawal from the fund of 3.7 billion kroner, after an inflow of 38 billion kroner this year."
Since Norway is spending the money and don't really have social classes the political classes are going to spend what equates to free money to buy votes. It's available to them for their use and what politician isn't going to spend money when they have it if it furthers their agenda? ALL residents pay extremely high income taxes (remember nothing is really free) and that money is used to provide welfare for those who don't work.
Norway's system also doesn't protect their people from high personal debt. Personal debt for Norwegians/Swedes/Danes is up to 200% higher than in the U.S. Also, their "free" education system hasn't been shown to be more successful than the U.S. So where does all the extra money go? Into their welfare system.
Norway has held on to it's success because of economic success that predates their welfare state but just barely. And it isn't likely to be able to maintain the current way of life under it's current system. That's the reason Denmark, Sweden, and other countries under similar systems have moved away from it. It just doesn't work. And they've proven it.
Pure socialism does not work. You are preaching to the choir. What works is a mixed economy and that is what they are striving for. BTW, pure capitalism does not work either.
Humans are greedy and will take advantage of crony capitalism or as lazy bums will take advantage of generous social programs----------same greed and dishonesty on different ends of the spectrum.
What is really important is that the government tries to work for the people rather than to donor class and corporations.
The only way for things to work well is to link the benefit with responsibilities. If you want the government to work for the people - not just redistribute people's wealth, aka, robbery, you need to prevent people on welfare from voting.
It is much more beneficial for people to earn their own bread and not burden others.
You can't run a country on a large safety net. You run a country producing products and selling products. The more people are working, the more they provide for themselves with the goal creating their own safety net.
Yeah sure, but, but, uhhh, tell that to the bankers who robbed you for eight years and still have their collective hand in our national treasury. Too big to fail...
The only way for things to work well is to link the benefit with responsibilities. If you want the government to work for the people - not just redistribute people's wealth, aka, robbery, you need to prevent people on welfare from voting.
It is not going to happen.
People on welfare are not the major problem of the US. The major problem is working people that are now retired collecting social security and Medicare for health care.
The only way for things to work well is to link the benefit with responsibilities. If you want the government to work for the people - not just redistribute people's wealth, aka, robbery, you need to prevent people on welfare from voting.
Bingo.
People on welfare are not contributing anything to society outside of helping drain bank accounts. If you work and contribute to society, you get to have a say in what is needed for society. If you don't, you get no opinion. Look at how many on career welfare vote for people who have ideologies of more free stuff..... none of them are voting for people who want to reduce welfare and put people back to work. It would interfere with their plan to scheme the system and force them to contribute to society. Their voting rights should be suspended until such time as they are able to contribute to society.
If you haven't worked in a set number of years and have no evidence (documented by multiple doctors) of a physical or mental disorder that prohibits you from working, you should be cut off from welfare. I would even be ok with paying for the gov't to do random inspections on long term welfare recipients to make sure they aren't scamming the system. If an inspector pulls up to find a 65" flat screen, a nice car, expensive clothes, and other things you shouldn't be able to afford your welfare benefits end immediately.
People on welfare are not the major problem of the US. The major problem is working people that are now retired collecting social security and Medicare for health care.
People on welfare might not be the only problem, but they are certainly a large enough part of society to have an effect. They are drawing money from a pot that many did not contribute to.
Retired people that are collecting social security have paid into social security and Medicare for their entire careers, often times hundreds of thousands of dollars. They should be able to draw out of the pot since they have contributed. (You have to work for at least 10 years to be eligible for social security)
Workers receive 4 credits per year worked, and need a minimum of 40 credits to apply. As credit builds in the SSI system, the amount you can receive increases. The only exception is that a spouse who has never worked can draw 50% benefits from a deceased person's SSI.
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At the end of the day, the employer is the one taking on all the risks. If I lose my job, I can work for another employer. If the employer loses, they go bankrupt. 
