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I'm not here to defending BLM, because I don't support BLM. I'm here to show how illogical of a rebuttal the "black on black" crime rebuttal is.
Did you ever think BLM itself is illogical?
Each and every one of these police-related killings differ in circumstances. Some are justified, some are tragic accidents, some are hoaxes, and some, yes, are cold blooded murder on the part of a cop or cops.
Treating them as one, monolithic issue is illogic exemplified. Hence the rebuttal you disdain as illogical, but in said light, is clearly logical and relevant.
Do you really think white people care that black people are killing each other?
Black on Black gun violence inflates the statistics. These statistics are then used against lawful pro second amendment supporters to further the anti gun agenda.
So the take away is..... second amendment supporters would like the black on black crime to diminish so the anti gunners can't use these stats against them.. Conversely, the anti gun folks like to flaunt these stats so there is no reason to fight black on black violent crime.
As a black Libertarian, who has spent majority of his life as a black conservative, I am no stranger to going against mainstream or accepted "black opinion" and viewpoints. And till this day, I have many positions about the black community that most black people would not agree with. Butt I have noticed a very disturbing viewpoint when it comes to addressing police brutality in the black community, and it's often "what about black on black crime".
Now at one time, I took this position. On the surface it seems quite logical. It's the old "clean up your own backyard, before you tell someone else to clean theirs" mentality. Except the argument doesn't hold up to deeper evaluation, and once one look deeper, it is unsupportable as a rational point of view. I do not attempt to speak for all black people who are against the entire "black on black crime" rebutttal, since I'm sure my POV is much different than theirs.
1. How EXACTLY do you fight black on black crime?
So I'm one of those people who actually sat back and thought about how someone solves an issue with black on black crime. What does this strategy look like? What is the gameplan? No one will answer this? Because stopping black on black crime is basically stopping crime itself. And if we could stop all crime, then what good are police? so this is where the argument breaks down.
Why are black people even responsible for stopping black on black crime? In theory isn't that what we pay police to do? So if it is up to black people to stop black on black crime, then essentially what you're saying that black people should police themselves? Since this responsibility OBVIOUSLY don't fall on cops, and falls on black individuals.
Actually I do support black people removing police out of their community, and policing themselves. But that's another topic for another time.
2. Black on black crime isn't ACTUALLY that bad
The bizzare narrative is that black on black crime hasn't been lower in over 50 years than it is today. As a whole black on black crime is down, and has gone down continously for 20 years. So the common rebuttle is this:
"Crime is still disproportionately high in the black community" - Except it's not, since crime is low overall in America relative to the population. This would mean that majority of black people aren't likely to be directly impacted by "black on black crime".
"Crime has gone up in Chicago" - This is also quite irrational. So because black on black crime is up in 1 city, does this automatically mean it's every black person's problem? So one has to ask, what is the assumed values of such a system?
Do we assume that because people in Chicago are black, and commit crime, and if you happen to be black, that crime local to Chicago is somehthing a black person could do anything about?
Again, how does a black person in LA fight crime in Chicago?
Isn't this more of a function of the failures of the Chicago PD than the black race as a whole?
3. There actually was a community effort to stop violence when violence was high in every black community
Before hip hop was just a whored out art form for corporate record companies, it was actually part of a huge social movement. It was an amazing way that people in the streets organized, talked about life in poverty, and mostly had positive messages. People who think rap has always been gangsta "shoot em up" should listen to 80s hip hop before it became mainstream. In many cases reformed gang members and gang leaders used hip hop as a medium for peace. And in many cases it reached out to black people, caused many cease fires in gang wars in LA, and I feel was instrumental in the drop in black on black crime from the 80s and 90s. Yet the main people who talk about black on black crime has no sense of history, because if they did, the black community does respond when black on black crime is at epidemic levels.
In conclusion. The "black on black crime" is a convenient rebuttal, and it speaks to ignorance about the history on black on black crime, unfair assumptions about black people's responsibility, and the lack of responsibility on the behalf of police.
I appreciate the different thinking regarding the black community. My thoughts from your comments...
1. How EXACTLY do you fight black on black crime?
You pay police to enforce the law. When it appears that the law has been broken, they go into action. Anything happening before that is on the citizens to control themselves. So yes - black people must restrain themselves from law breaking activity. To me - that means you foster an environment that promotes good behavior, hard work that results in rewards, etc. A two parent father/mother household is the best foundation to foster a good environment. It is the building block of a healthy culture. For Christianity, it's about being at peace with all men as much as possible.
2. Black on black crime isn't ACTUALLY that bad
I think the problem with black on black crime is twofold... one - we kill ourselves more than white people kill us... two - we want white people to change their ways while neglecting that we are our own worst enemy.
3. There actually was a community effort to stop violence when violence was high in every black community
I agree with your take on early rap. It was much more positive.
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My problem with black on black crime is that the people who want to change it have no power, and the people with the power are OK with it (since they don't call for change).
As a black Libertarian, who has spent majority of his life as a black conservative, I am no stranger to going against mainstream or accepted "black opinion" and viewpoints. And till this day, I have many positions about the black community that most black people would not agree with. Butt I have noticed a very disturbing viewpoint when it comes to addressing police brutality in the black community, and it's often "what about black on black crime".
Now at one time, I took this position. On the surface it seems quite logical. It's the old "clean up your own backyard, before you tell someone else to clean theirs" mentality. Except the argument doesn't hold up to deeper evaluation, and once one look deeper, it is unsupportable as a rational point of view. I do not attempt to speak for all black people who are against the entire "black on black crime" rebutttal, since I'm sure my POV is much different than theirs.
1. How EXACTLY do you fight black on black crime?
So I'm one of those people who actually sat back and thought about how someone solves an issue with black on black crime. What does this strategy look like? What is the gameplan? No one will answer this? Because stopping black on black crime is basically stopping crime itself. And if we could stop all crime, then what good are police? so this is where the argument breaks down.
Why are black people even responsible for stopping black on black crime? In theory isn't that what we pay police to do? So if it is up to black people to stop black on black crime, then essentially what you're saying that black people should police themselves? Since this responsibility OBVIOUSLY don't fall on cops, and falls on black individuals.
Actually I do support black people removing police out of their community, and policing themselves. But that's another topic for another time.
2. Black on black crime isn't ACTUALLY that bad
The bizzare narrative is that black on black crime hasn't been lower in over 50 years than it is today. As a whole black on black crime is down, and has gone down continously for 20 years. So the common rebuttle is this:
"Crime is still disproportionately high in the black community" - Except it's not, since crime is low overall in America relative to the population. This would mean that majority of black people aren't likely to be directly impacted by "black on black crime".
"Crime has gone up in Chicago" - This is also quite irrational. So because black on black crime is up in 1 city, does this automatically mean it's every black person's problem? So one has to ask, what is the assumed values of such a system?
Do we assume that because people in Chicago are black, and commit crime, and if you happen to be black, that crime local to Chicago is somehthing a black person could do anything about?
Again, how does a black person in LA fight crime in Chicago?
Isn't this more of a function of the failures of the Chicago PD than the black race as a whole?
3. There actually was a community effort to stop violence when violence was high in every black community
Before hip hop was just a whored out art form for corporate record companies, it was actually part of a huge social movement. It was an amazing way that people in the streets organized, talked about life in poverty, and mostly had positive messages. People who think rap has always been gangsta "shoot em up" should listen to 80s hip hop before it became mainstream. In many cases reformed gang members and gang leaders used hip hop as a medium for peace. And in many cases it reached out to black people, caused many cease fires in gang wars in LA, and I feel was instrumental in the drop in black on black crime from the 80s and 90s. Yet the main people who talk about black on black crime has no sense of history, because if they did, the black community does respond when black on black crime is at epidemic levels.
In conclusion. The "black on black crime" is a convenient rebuttal, and it speaks to ignorance about the history on black on black crime, unfair assumptions about black people's responsibility, and the lack of responsibility on the behalf of police.
True that crime rates have been coming down generally for the last couple decades. But blacks still commit murder 9 times the rate of whites in the USA. For example, Philly has a murder rate 6 times higher than Seattle over the last 5 years...Philly also has 6 times the ratio of blacks than does Seattle. I'm glad you feel safe and I'm glad the rate is going down but after growing up in a black majority city and having friends and acquaintances killed, robbed and beaten, I don't feel safe there or any city in the USA that is majority blacks.
Are you seriously saying blacks are actually doing police a FAVOR by causing crime and violence to keep cops busy and employed?? >_>
Blacks are responsible for stopping black on black crime because ITS THEIR CHILDREN who are injuring and killing each other as well as causing never ending violence and crime in not only their own communities but in other communities as well. If many black people were so nice and friendly to live around, everyone wouldn't feel the need to move away from them including other black people.
This statement makes the assumption that all or majority black communities are impacted by crime. When this isn't actually the truth. The truth is that SOME or a small minority of neighborhoods have a crime problem. For example, let's take my old neighborhood.
I use to live on a block called 39th and South Benton. Almost zero crime happened on this block beside the odd fight sometimes. No one really ever got shot, murder was acttually pretty uncommon. But the next block over 38th and Chesnut was an extremely bad block. Very dangerous to walk through. The next 5-10 blocks were mostly pretty safe with very sparse crime in them. But they are labeled bad neighborhoods because of their proximity to one problem block which is 38th and Chesnut.
So this mean 1 out of 10 blocks in these "black communities" are actually dangerous. There are even situations where you're a good 20 blocks or 30 blocks from any crime hotspot. In some cases bad blocks are 1:10 on average or 1:30 ratios for blocks.
So in most cases the AVERAGE black person is literally 20 city blocks away from a hotspot. They usually don't deal with any actual crime directly. And even in Chicago, which is the crowning example of gang violence, we're still talking about 5 blocks in the ENTIRE CITY. Just a hint, black people live in more than just 5 blocks in Chicago.
So the initial assumption is flawed. Most black neighborhoods are not high in crime. Just certain problem areas. Most blacks even in the same city have no actual relationship or insight as to why the crimes are even happening. most don't even really deal with it directly, unless they have an odd family member who get's caught up in the mess.
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As for what black people could do to lower crime in their communities, how about raising their kids properly in the first place with some morals, compassion and respect for their fellow human being? And how about ratting out all the criminals and thugs that are causing so much trouble in black communities instead of hiding them because they're your homies or family members or you just plain don't want to turn them in because EFF DA POLICE?
There is a church on every corner in the black community. Pretty sure they're raised with morality. The issue isn't morality, it's policy. The issue is economics, not race. If you create economic incentives to sell drugs, and then you make said drugs illegal, and you violate civil rights because you now label anyone who does drugs as a "criminal", then you are creating the violence. If black drug dealers freely traded, I doubt there would be much violence surrounding drugs.
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As an example, just recently here in Toronto there was a man running around in several neighborhoods sexually assaulting women. Then on one or two occasions he was caught on camera and the video was put on the news and very quickly he was identified with the help of tips from the public and he was eventually arrested. The suspect was a black male, but the point is THAT is how you clean up the streets and neighborhoods, when you have people who are willing to help police get criminals off the street, something which unfortunately all too often blacks DO NOT want to do.
So who cares? do you care about every white person who rapes someone? Tons of crime in the black community gets recorded. There was actually a gang shooting that happened on facebook live about a month ago.
No one likes the police in the black community because they're useless. Slow responses, totally don't care, seem to be more annoyed when they're called than anything, and really has no good record of actually doing anything anyone would find valuable. My aunt house was broken into multiple times, and she called the police. But it was pointless because the police not only took 3-5 hours to respond (even 2 days in one case), but they didn't investigate it at all. Neighbors were willing to work with police, but that would assume police actually launched an investigation. Oh and in case you haven't figured it out, this investigation never happened.
rap now will suddenly change just because its people from their neighborhoods are now policing them.
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While I agree black on black crime is much lower than it use to be, its still MANY TIMES HIGHER than in most non-black communities. [/quote]
4% of all black people commit crimes. This isn't "bad"
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So in the last couple of decades, its gone from absolutely horrible to still pretty damn bad. And it affects pretty much every black community of significant size in the ENTIRE US.
It doesn't effect every black community, not even close. And this is where you are showing you really don't know what you're talking about.
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Namely there's not one, ONE black community that's 100,000 black people or more in the WHOLE of the US that has crime and murder rates that are even at the national average let alone below national average.
The common statistical fallacy when talking about murder. Murder has never been close to 100k in a given year. Murders are actually around 14k a year. Half of that is 7k. That means 40 million people share 7k murders. This also means 300 million people share 14k murders in a given year.
Murder actually isn't even an issue in the USA. It makes up less than 10% of the prison population in general. Drugs make up the highest reason for incarceration rates being so high.
[qupte] YES you can by simply reporting what you see. If you see someone getting shot, let police know about it. If you see someone get robbed, call the police. That's all you really need to do and if every black person did that consistently I GUARANTEE crime and violence would've gone down by a TON a longtime ago.[/quote]
The police don't fight crime until tthe mayor does. You can report all the crime you want, but ultimately you don't control what the police do or what the prioritize. They don't organize themselves based on what people want, they are based on what politicians want. They don't work for people, especially not people in poor communities.
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No its not a failure of police when as I said there's not ONE SINGLE peaceful large community of black people in ALL OF AMERICA. How you can put all the blame on police when you can't look on the map and say 'See right here. 500,000 black people living together peacefully and with low crime rates right here. So not all large black communities are violent and dangerous. So there!!' Except such a place DOES NOT EXIST because blacks are violent EVERYWHERE where they settle in large numbers.
Of course you're wrong in many counts. I've shown numerous examples all over my post here of peaceful protest from blacks. Ton of them happen in Philly everyy month. But that's nott going tto make it to CNN.
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And to your question how does a black person in LA fight crime in Chicago, the answer is THEY DON'T. All they have to do is take care of and clean up their own neighborhoods and help their local police to do that and that's it. So blacks in LA help clean up their neighborhoods there, blacks in Chicago clean up their neighborhoods and so on and so forth. But apparently few if any black communities anywhere are capable of that.
The murder rate is not bad in LA, it's bad in Chicago. Chicago is the city with the bad crime rate. So again, if black people should be fixing the issue with black on black crime, and majority of it is in Chicago, then what does a black person in NYC, LA, or some other city need to do to fix issues of crime local to Chicago?
Give up? They can't. That is where the whole "call to action" for black on black crime falls apart. It's simply not every black person's problem.
Each and every one of these police-related killings differ in circumstances. Some are justified, some are tragic accidents, some are hoaxes, and some, yes, are cold blooded murder on the part of a cop or cops.
Treating them as one, monolithic issue is illogic exemplified. Hence the rebuttal you disdain as illogical, but in said light, is clearly logical and relevant.
I think BLM is illogical because it is asking for rights from the government. The government is the one violating these rights, so it's illogical to ask for something from the very thing that takes it away. The real solution is to be free of the very thing threatening your "rights"
I think BLM is illogical because it is asking for rights from the government. The government is the one violating these rights, so it's illogical to ask for something from the very thing that takes it away. The real solution is to be free of the very thing threatening your "rights"
BLM is socialist/communist in its roots, so it totally makes sense that the figure heads of BLM would go to the government for help.
I think BLM is illogical because it is asking for rights from the government. The government is the one violating these rights, so it's illogical to ask for something from the very thing that takes it away. The real solution is to be free of the very thing threatening your "rights"
IMHO, the black community has always had contradictory view of the State.
It is both Oppressor and Savior.
Still, history teaches us that the same State that can approve of and regulate Slavery can also dismantle it and eventually do everything in its power to instill Equality.
branh, it seems like you contradicted yourself a little bit. First you say there's nothing the black community can do to stop crime, then you talk about how hip hop in the '80's helped reduce crime because people in the community were talking and pushing for peace. Isn't that doing something? You can't credit the cops for that improvement.
Who are you folks at your core who say white people don't care when a black person kills a black person? Personally, it makes my stomach churn. Especially when I see grieving family members on the news.
It's the loss of a life. To have to live in an area where peaceful people are struggling to survive and be subject to such violence is horrific to me. I don't get how you can NOT care or feel any kind of sympathy around that.
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