The big ObamaCare bubble is about to explode! (Putin, generation, illegal)

[Seacove]

Originally Posted by middle-aged mom

" they can go shop for a policy like the rest of us do"

Well, no they can't because insurers ( most of whom are for profit publicly traded corporations) decline to be the primary insurer of elderly healthcare risks

Not my problem. If seniors think government health care is so bad for the country, they need to give it up themselves. This idea that it's bad for everyone but themselves is where I call BS. You want to get a senior worked up? Take away their Medicare. They turn 65 and spend that Medicare like it's a Black AMEX.

Yet they are the first to scream about the evils of government health coverage for anyone but themselves. They love their Medicare. I say give them what they contributed and cut them off. When everyone is on the same playing field, we can talk more honestly.

[workingclasshero]

Originally Posted by TKO

I believe the whole point of single payer is that we can negotiate, from a very, very strong position, for all the people covered by the single payer. Which will certainly be the vast majority of people in the country.

Those healthcare professionals that don't like it, can try and play in the privately insured game. It will be the very best of them I'm sure. It won't be big enough to steal all the doctors, nurses and hospitals in existence away from the public pool, by a long shot.

You'll get what you pay and that's hardly socialism.

sorry, but you will be real sorry if you think singlepayer can negotiate anything

we've seen what a 'government option' is like...just look at the dept of health HORROR CLINICS

oh and its NEVER free.... as a taxpayer you cant afford singlepayer



ever worked a budget, or seen what the actual medical costs are???...this is not about insurance..its about actual cost of care

national health care..or singlepayer..or universal health care...cant be done without killing the taxpayer

national health care or mediciad for all.. or whatever you want to call it will cost 3 trillion to 6 trillion YEARLY and ALWAYS going up

there are only 140 million tax FILERS of which 47% dont pay anything or nearly nothing...so there are only about 70-75 million tax PAYERS

are you a taxpayer....then you wont be able to afford medicare for all (which is NOT a 100% singlepayer( it is a 80/20 insurance)


we've seen what a 'government option' is like...just look at the dept of health HORROR CLINICS

oh and its NEVER free.... as a taxpayer you cant afford singlepayer

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singlepayer wont save you a dime.... but if you are a taxpayer you sure will be screwed

if the payer (government in this case) says the payment is xxx, yet the provider NEEDS yyy to cover all his over head, then its not just about a payment...we have many (some say as many as 1500) cost of living areas within the usa.... that's one of the key things to remember is that one size does not fit all


with UHC you cant GUARENTEE of QUALITY care (look at the health dept horror clinics)

you (the taxpayer) cant afford singlepayer aka uhc....unless we change the tax system

singlepayer ( total government funding(taxpayer) and total government control) is NOT what we need...not if we EXPECT the QUALITY of care

when you look at the COSTS of ACTUAL care (not insurance) and the OVERHEAD costs associated with the care..the cost would be astronomical to cover 325 million people

and lets look at the some other numbers:

the ACTUAL cost just to help americans with Alzheimer's is over 400 billion every year

and let's not forget:

Obesity rates among ALL OECD nations increased in recent years, with the highest rate in the U.S. at 37.3% -- which means one in 3 Americans is by definition obese.----costing 270 billion per year and will grow to 344 billion within the next 2 years
New Data Shows Obesity Costs Will Grow to $344 Billion by 2018 | Partnership to Fight Chronic Disease


number of americans getting cancer (new cases) per year 1.9 million for a total of 25 million people being treated (fighting) each year...each year at least 570,000 die from cancer....the cost is over 150 billion. and expected to be 190 billion by 2020



number of americans with heart disease: 29.2 million and of those..((Number of visits with heart disease as primary diagnosis: 17 million ))((Number of discharges with heart disease as first-listed diagnosis: 4.9 million)).....900,000 people in the USA die from heart disease annually....the cost 490 billionannualy



number of americans in full pledged nursing homes: 2.5 million...... the average cost Adult Day Health Care,.18,000 per year......assisted living facility 43,000 per year....nursing home (semi-private room),.80,000 per year.......nursing home (private room),.91,000
number of americans in all levels of nursing homes and assisted living....12 million (Annually 11,995,100 people receive support from the 5 main long-term care service; home health agencies (5,742,500), nursing homes (2,383,700), hospices (1,544,500), residential care communities (913,300) and adult day service centers (373,200)...............total cost of long term care 490 billion annually...and going up every year
https://www.genworth.com/corporate/a...t-of-care.html





More than 26 million Americans have significant vision loss.((a total of 85 million Americans have potentially blinding eye diseases. )) (((hmmm more than 26 million americans are blind or going blind.....that's more than Norway, Finland, Denmark, Switzerland, and Austria COMBINED TOTAL population....)))......The cost of vision loss, including direct costs and lost productivity, is estimated to exceed $141 billion
Cost of Vision Problems — Discussion


number of americans with diabetes: 31 million....total cost 325 billion per year


number of americans with asthma: 27 million....Each day 11 Americans die from asthma.......annual costs 76 billion per yearand increasing


while some of those may overlap...look at those numbers that's over 160 million with MAJOR health problems,,costly problems......we will ALWAYS be the largest spender in the world...we have the 3rd highest population in the world (next to china and India) and we have more people (total, not a percentage) with major problems than any other country in Europe.....I just showed you at least 160 million people with cancer, heart, blindness, diabetes, asthma.......that's more than France and great Britain COMBINED for their total populations.




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so what are we saying we should FORCE doctors and nurse to work for minimum wage. and have offices in huts

when you pay that doctor $100 ,, its not 100 dollars going into his pocket...there are lots of other COSTS

how are you going to control the cost of medical equipment(mri or x-ray machines, etc)??????most xray machine are made in Denmark

how are you going to control the cost of the rising electric bills the doctors/hospitals are facing????

how are you going to control the rising property tax/rent/mortgage that doctors face?????

how are you going to control the cost of supplies(gauze, plaster, silk, rubber, polystyrene( a oil product)?????especially some supplies that aren't even american

how are you going to control the cost of people salaries???? a maximum wage???

how they are going to control the employment costs for Doctors, nurses, technicians, hospital food operators, hospital linen cleaning service, custodial services, medical transcribers........are you going to 'nationalize' every profession that is even remotely connected to medicine????

how are they going to control malpractice INSURANCE COSTS?????

things are expensive

for example the average hospital uses a lot of electricity...about 400,000 a month...thats 5 million dollars in electric costs yearly.....you are not going to cut that piece of overhead

when you go to the local doctor and pay him/her 100..its not 100 going into their pocket

they have lots of overhead costs:
rent/lease/mortgage
property taxes
electric costs
equipment costs(and many pieces of equipment are not even made here)
cleaning costs
supply costs
personnel costs
etc


singlepayer will not control these costs


don't you get it... medicine (like anyother SERVICE) costs money,,(,money that our government doesn't have)

want to know A BIG REASON why its lower in those other countries.??? salaries.....a nurse in France(actually most of europe) makes about 1500-1800 a month(in us dollars)..that's 18-20000 a year.....meanwhile according to payscale.com the average Rn makes 40-78,000 in the usa


so what is it you 'think' or 'believe' we will be able to negotiate ???

[middle-aged mom]

More than 30 million people in the US have diabetes.

$1 out of $3 Medicare expenditure is spent treating Diabetes and complications

$1 out of $5 healthcare expenditure is spent treating Diabetes and complications

$322 billion is spent annually treating Diabetes

Every day 7 days a week, 365 days a year:

200 people undergo an amputation due to diabetes

136 people enter treatment for end stage kidney disease attributed to Diabetes

1,795 people are diagnosed with severe relenopathy leading to blindness

Millions are disabled and recieve SSDI and related welfare benefits as a result of Complications attributed to Diabetes.

Most people who are diagnosed with Diabetes 2 are overweight/ obese.

Some races and/ ethnicities seem to have a genetic predisposition towards Doabetes 2, which can be mitigated by weight control.

People complain about and expect government to "do something "about the cost of healthcare and insurance, while ignoring their contribution to the problem.

[middle-aged mom]

Originally Posted by workingclasshero

want to know A BIG REASON why its lower in those other countries.??? salaries.....a nurse in France(actually most of europe) makes about 1500-1800 a month(in us dollars)..that's 18-20000 a year.....meanwhile according to payscale.com the average Rn makes 40-78,000 in the usa
?

Think your EU salaries may be a tad dated. Nonetheless your point is well taken

Generally speaking there is a substantial difference in Healthcare compensation between US and the rest of the developed world and it's not limited to RNs. Taxes and the cost of living in those countries tend to be higher than in the US. Despite this, France is considered to be the too healthcare system in the world.

Young and adventurous healthcare professionals will take a contract in Saudi Arabia or Dubai where living expenses are paid for, comp is multiples of what one could earn in their home country and benefits, especially paid time off is very generous. On the flip side, EU countries import cheaper labor from non EU countries to keep a lid on their costs.

On the homefront, there are acute regional shortages of RNs ( and MDs for that matter) throughout the US. Many hospitals are paying sign on bonuses, payable over time or paying off qualified student loan debt as incentives.

Healthcare has and continues to evolve. PAs and NPs attend to routine healthcare matters freeing MDs up fir higher valued tasks. Medical techs now perform routine functions to free up RNs for higher value tasks.

We have not even touched on the wages of non- medical administrative staffs in hospitals.

Yet, if one were took take the doom and gloom politicians, the media who love them and many posters to this forum at face value, there are no jobs for anyone , anywhere and all wages have stagnated. Obviously, they overlook the fastest growing employment sector in the US.

[xray731]

Originally Posted by Seacove

Government health care is BAD, remember? Why should seniors take my tax money for their health coverage when:

1. They protest anyone receiving health coverage but themselves
2. They love to scream about the evils of government health coverage
3. They are getting far far more in coverage than they contributed plus one in five get Medicaid on top of it!
4. If they think government needs to get out of health care, that includes Medicare
5. If they can pay that 20%, they can pay the rest. If government health care is bad, let's end it for everyone. Let them go buy a policy like the rest of us do.



So you are saying your parents desperately need Medicare coverage but government health coverage is bad? You need to make up your mind. If you think government health coverage is so terrible, start paying for your parents. It sounds like they've already spent what they contributed so they need to get out of my wallet and you can pay for them.

When seniors give up Medicare coverage we will see some honesty. Let them spend their contribution plus interest and then pay for their own coverage. When everyone is one the exact same playing field, let's talk about health care. Seniors arguing against government health coverage while they themselves are lapping it up like a thirsty dog screams of hypocrisy. I don't care if they had to pay $12K, what that means is they probably spent $100K for that bypass alone.

You really don't make sense and I can only assume you're what in your 20's? My parents are entitled to Medicare as they are 80 yrs old. I didn't say that gov't health care was bad but you seem to be under the assumption that it is free - which it is not. After breast cancer surgery my mom was paying $1200 a month for 5 months due to the donut hole many seniors fell into at the time - which the ACA did address.

They do pay for a policy and still pay for Medicare monthly - you are really making yourself look foolish. The problem is that the money put into Medicare has never been invested correctly - and the gov't keeps borrowing from it. Obama alone "borrowed" $700 billion dollars from Medicare to pay for the ACA. Had the money been invested properly and left to grow - there would not be as tremendous a cost each year.

[xray731]

Originally Posted by middle-aged mom

Think your EU salaries may be a tad dated. Nonetheless your point is well taken

Generally speaking there is a substantial difference in Healthcare compensation between US and the rest of the developed world and it's not limited to RNs. Taxes and the cost of living in those countries tend to be higher than in the US. Despite this, France is considered to be the too healthcare system in the world.

Young and adventurous healthcare professionals will take a contract in Saudi Arabia or Dubai where living expenses are paid for, comp is multiples of what one could earn in their home country and benefits, especially paid time off is very generous. On the flip side, EU countries import cheaper labor from non EU countries to keep a lid on their costs.

On the homefront, there are acute regional shortages of RNs ( and MDs for that matter) throughout the US. Many hospitals are paying sign on bonuses, payable over time or paying off qualified student loan debt as incentives.

Healthcare has and continues to evolve. PAs and NPs attend to routine healthcare matters freeing MDs up fir higher valued tasks. Medical techs now perform routine functions to free up RNs for higher value tasks.

We have not even touched on the wages of non- medical administrative staffs in hospitals.

Yet, if one were took take the doom and gloom politicians, the media who love them and many posters to this forum at face value, there are no jobs for anyone , anywhere and all wages have stagnated. Obviously, they overlook the fastest growing employment sector in the US.

You fail to point out the salaries and benefits of this fastest growing field - of which I've been a part for over 40 yrs now. I know medical techs that are paid less than a medical secretary makes. This is 2 yrs of schooling vs 0 yrs of schooling. I know the hospitals around here are hiring nurses - the reason they can't get them is because they will not hire full time because of increased costs due to Obamacare. Nurses around here are lucky to work 29 hrs a week and so many have left the state - gone into other industries like compensation insurance or work for the health insurance companies themselves. The PAs and NPs I'm friends with work 60 - 70 hour weeks - although some may think they are paid well - they make approx. $80,000 - $95,000 a year - not bad but comparably to a software engineer or financial advisor - who only work 8 hr days, aren't being called in to the hospital at 2 am and don't have people's lives in their hands. That job is not for everyone - no matter if they are available or not.

[Hoonose]

Originally Posted by middle-aged mom

Yet, if one were took take the doom and gloom politicians, the media who love them and many posters to this forum at face value, there are no jobs for anyone , anywhere and all wages have stagnated. Obviously, they overlook the fastest growing employment sector in the US.

You will have to look long and hard to find anyone pitching the huge benefits of the other side of the HC coin.

Expanding medical jobs and growing HC related businesses in every community.

Then there is the value of HC itself, the value of personal and family health, happiness and security.

Medicare is the great equalizer, as we about all will participate and reap the benefits.

[Hesster]

Originally Posted by kevinm

Paul Ryan to Hillary. Repeal Obamacare or face impeachment. She can't hide behind the race card.

This may not be the dumbest thing I've read on this forum, but it sure comes close.

First, "the president should do what we want or else" is not enough grounds for impeachment.

Second, the Republicans have about a snowball's chance in hell of gaining enough seats in Congress to actually make it stick. They'll be lucky if they don't lose control of the Senate.

[InformedConsent]

Originally Posted by le roi

This only applies to certain surgeries.

Routine surgeries. The BBC gave the specific example of knee and hip replacements, but the restrictions are on all non-emergency surgeries. Clearly, an imminently life-threatening emergency surgery wouldn't be denied.

[InformedConsent]

Originally Posted by godofthunder9010

If they are being denied any surgery that is covered for non-smokers and skinny people, then I've got a problem with that.

It's healthcare rationing. And it has to be done because the UK can't afford to fund the extra healthcare costs incurred by the obese and/or smokers.