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Old 09-05-2016, 09:02 PM
 
19,966 posts, read 7,834,045 times
Reputation: 6556

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kode View Post
My experience is pretty consistent: illegal labor doesn't know how to do the job properly. I bought a new house that was built with untrained labor, -maybe some illegal, and I just settled a lawsuit about the lousy work and water leaks. I hired landscapers to take care of my front yard and after two visits by the landscapers (popular landscaper in this county) it looked worst then before they came, so now I'm doing it.

I don't consider that a "benefit".
Well we agree on something. Lower cost does not necessarily equal a better value. That applies to foreign sourced goods like toxic and low quality products outsourced to China.
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Old 09-05-2016, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Houston
26,979 posts, read 15,837,968 times
Reputation: 11259
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
Maybe but what about the American worker and tax payer? Not everything is strictly economics. Some things are political, social and cultural. I'd argue illegals and immigration negatively impact there.

Yes, due to the welfare state the illegal immigrant is a burden and is even a bigger burden if he becomes legal.
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Old 09-06-2016, 05:16 AM
 
45,116 posts, read 26,284,895 times
Reputation: 24844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kode View Post
Click on my name and read.
Then you know there is a welfare state.
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Old 09-06-2016, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Just over the horizon
18,407 posts, read 7,039,011 times
Reputation: 11656
Quote:
Originally Posted by okcthunder1945 View Post
Are all roofers in collusion? Otherwise they compete with each other as I can get various bids on jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whogo View Post
Stole my thunder. The fact is American consumers benefit greatly from illegal labor. Eliminate the welfare state and the nation would greatly benefit.


OK, let's do some math here.


Say a six man roofing crew takes two ten hour days to do an average job from start to finish......

With all other things being equal (materials, square footage, etc)

6 illegals @ $7.25/hr X 20 hrs = $870.00 in labor costs.

6 Americans @ $18.00/hr X 20 hrs = $2160.00 in labor costs.

That's a difference in labor costs of $1290.00 .....and that's assuming that the contractor passes on all the savings in labor costs and that all the American workers would be making the same hourly rate, which in reality some would be helpers or apprentices and make less.

I don't know about you, but to me.......If you factor in all the increased costs illegals take from Americans in taxes and services, the extra $1290.00 for my roof to be done right and employing Americans is money well spent.
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Old 09-06-2016, 08:36 AM
 
Location: SE Asia
16,236 posts, read 5,849,108 times
Reputation: 9117
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatBob96 View Post
OK, let's do some math here.


Say a six man roofing crew takes two ten hour days to do an average job from start to finish......

With all other things being equal (materials, square footage, etc)

6 illegals @ $7.25/hr X 20 hrs = $870.00 in labor costs.

6 Americans @ $18.00/hr X 20 hrs = $2160.00 in labor costs.

That's a difference in labor costs of $1290.00 .....and that's assuming that the contractor passes on all the savings in labor costs and that all the American workers would be making the same hourly rate, which in reality some would be helpers or apprentices and make less.

I don't know about you, but to me.......If you factor in all the increased costs illegals take from Americans in taxes and services, the extra $1290.00 for my roof to be done right and employing Americans is money well spent.
And that is assuming that the greedy contractor will actually pass on the savings to the consumer, which I doubt happens.
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Old 09-06-2016, 08:43 AM
 
62,696 posts, read 28,894,374 times
Reputation: 18473
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatBob96 View Post
OK, let's do some math here.


Say a six man roofing crew takes two ten hour days to do an average job from start to finish......

With all other things being equal (materials, square footage, etc)

6 illegals @ $7.25/hr X 20 hrs = $870.00 in labor costs.

6 Americans @ $18.00/hr X 20 hrs = $2160.00 in labor costs.

That's a difference in labor costs of $1290.00 .....and that's assuming that the contractor passes on all the savings in labor costs and that all the American workers would be making the same hourly rate, which in reality some would be helpers or apprentices and make less.

I don't know about you, but to me.......If you factor in all the increased costs illegals take from Americans in taxes and services, the extra $1290.00 for my roof to be done right and employing Americans is money well spent.

Not only that but you would be employing Americans not those who don't even have a right to be in this country much less to be working here. You'd also not be violating our labor and employment laws of which some in here apparently don't give a damn about.
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Old 09-06-2016, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Lewes, Delaware
3,490 posts, read 3,780,786 times
Reputation: 1953
Savings passed onto the consumer is a fallacy, I'm seeing new houses cost $100,000 more now then they did 7-8 years ago. Labor costs with illegals has remained steady during that time, material costs have risen but not by 40-50 grand per home. These builders are making a fortune and they aren't passing the savings to anyone other than their own boats, vacations, etc....
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Old 09-06-2016, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
1,050 posts, read 503,323 times
Reputation: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank DeForrest View Post
Then you know there is a welfare state.
I know that you can't just answer a question.

I also know that a "welfare state" is:
n. A social system whereby the state assumes primary responsibility for the welfare of its citizens, as in matters of health care, education, employment, and social security.
n. A nation in which such a system operates.



I also know there is no such thing in the U.S.
The U.S. provides alternatives for citizens but "assumes primary responsibility for the welfare of its citizens"?? No.
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Old 09-06-2016, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
1,050 posts, read 503,323 times
Reputation: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatBob96 View Post
OK, let's do some math here.


Say a six man roofing crew takes two ten hour days to do an average job from start to finish......

With all other things being equal (materials, square footage, etc)

6 illegals @ $7.25/hr X 20 hrs = $870.00 in labor costs.

6 Americans @ $18.00/hr X 20 hrs = $2160.00 in labor costs.

That's a difference in labor costs of $1290.00 .....and that's assuming that the contractor passes on all the savings in labor costs and that all the American workers would be making the same hourly rate, which in reality some would be helpers or apprentices and make less.

I don't know about you, but to me.......If you factor in all the increased costs illegals take from Americans in taxes and services, the extra $1290.00 for my roof to be done right and employing Americans is money well spent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boneyard1962 >
And that is assuming that the greedy contractor will actually pass on the savings to the consumer, which I doubt happens.
Right. It doesn't happen. Contractors are not in business to find ways to reduce costs to customers.

Also, my experience is that the illegals do a far worse job than the Americans. They cut corners, they do a sloppy job, they don't read well so they don't pay attention to installation instructions, etc, etc.
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Old 09-06-2016, 09:59 AM
 
5,252 posts, read 4,654,910 times
Reputation: 17362
Fourteen pages of opinion, 137 posts, often a re-hash of prior posts, thirty years of complaining, over fifty years of "guest worker" programs, presidents and congressmen have come and gone and the "problem" persists, why? Cheap labor, that's the problem, not only in regard to illegal immigrants, but moreover the entire American labor construct, from way back in the colonial times.

We (American labor) have fought the cheap labor system way before the illegals came here, they are simply the tools of the new war on workers. Take a good look at the American labor history and tell me that this is our worst labor problem ever, it's not, it's only the newest problem. When we decide to raise the bar on wages we'll see who shows up for those jobs.. And, when we imprison those who impoverish us through the use of illegal labor we will see some change. When we cheer the savings from cheap labor ANYWHERE, we invite those poor desperadoes to our doorstep.

This will only get worse, as it has been shown in the past, cheap labor trumps all things in a capitalistic society, patriotism, caring about our friends and families, caring about our country, our kids, our future, everything is subjugated to that almighty cheap labor paradigm. But--those who have advocated for that bottom line thinking are now reaping the rewards of their cheap and short sighted economic philosophy, cheering on the death of unions, peeing on the hopes of a lousy fifteen dollar an hour wage base, even though none would work for that amount, capitalism, unbridled, and a subservient government of politicians that are beholden to their cash contributors for their survival.

And now we have the spectacle of those pro corporate cheerleaders becoming angry at the prospect of their Utopian libertarian dream coming true. Victory goes to those working for the lowest wage possible in this free for all view of things, open the borders, "let them fight it out between them," that's the view from on high, there is no love of country at the top, only a love of money.

As long as that remains as the goal, to make more, and more, and more yet, they will bring the desperate from all corners of the globe, well, that's already happened, and no politician, no matter what they say, is going to stop it, simply because they support the aggregate notion of low wages in general. American labor TOOK what they felt they deserved at one time, and now we see the tide turning and they are back to hoping for a political solution based on the promises of two wealthy candidates who wouldn't give the working class guy the time of day..
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