Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
More baloney from you. Just google online what the cost of tuition free public college is. Its $70 billion. Why do you bring room and board into the discussion!!??! We are talking about tuition, and tuition only.
I think room and board are important parts of this discussion. I've said several times before that there are likely going to be unintended consequences that come out of any "free tuition" plan, and my hypothesis is that it will be directly reflected in room and board costs.
We all know that the whole system is currently set up right now so that kids are loaned as much money as possible because student loans are exempt from bankruptcy rules, so its as close to guaranteed money for these institutions. They know all too well what the breaking point is in terms of how much money can be extracted from families and students before they decide against going to schools. Once that tuition money is freed up and they are no longer paying for that, I find it highly likely that you will quickly see schools recouping that money from other areas such as room and board fees, as well as adding extra semesters to degree programs in order to lengthen the amount of time room and board expenses can be charged.
The problem with our higher education system is that its too expensive and the costs don't line up with inflation, likely because of government tinkering in handing out free money, as well as those lobbyists involved from the education industry. Much like health care, we need to solve the root cause of the cost issue before we can just decide that we need to start giving it away. Find the issues with the cost, address those so that a larger percentage of folks can actually afford it without it becoming a life long financial burden, then look at helping those who truly need the help and want to further their education. Its a simple approach, that unfortunately has a very complex root cause (in terms of the cost) to fix.
once again, you roll with rants about what you THINK and call me a liar because you don't like what you think im saying... but you have not provided a single sliver of evidence. not one.
I however, provided detail that outlines what I have studied for YEARS because (Gasp) I actually have interest in their system because there are some things worthy of understanding. like maybe we can learn something...
please note, it wasn't me but the OP who stated the Germans provide freed college tuition.
once again, you are the one casting aspersions without providing any evidence. I suspect that most folk reading our exchange, will now look at what you say with a healthy dose of skepticism because you simply refuse to provide any evidence (after 3 requests for such)
You know what I think? I thin YOU are the one that couldn't tell the truth standing on a bible looking at God.
There. that's a proper insult. tit for tat.
My ONLY point in explaining the German system is to clearly state that because the germans provide college tuition, you cannot say we can. because we don't have the same kind of system. I explained the German system. I provided detailed proof of what I have stated. Not from biased right wing anti German sites, nor from Wikipedia. but from a solid balanced source. I can provide a lot more because like Ive said, this isn't a new subject for me.
You use the German system as a way to argue that America cant do it. Its pure deception. Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Belgium, France etc etc etc all provide tuition free college. Most have a system very similar to the US. It is nothing like the German system (where LESS THAN HALF of college students even graduated from "gymnasium" as its easy to get admitted to college through lots of paths not only gymnasium). Of course we can afford $70 billion in tuition free college. Its 0.4% of GDP. And such an investment provides massive benefits down the line, especially for working stiffs. Its totally absurd that working class Americans are fighting tooth and nail to make sure they and their family members get as few ladders of opportunities as possible.
I think room and board are important parts of this discussion. I've said several times before that there are likely going to be unintended consequences that come out of any "free tuition" plan, and my hypothesis is that it will be directly reflected in room and board costs.
We all know that the whole system is currently set up right now so that kids are loaned as much money as possible because student loans are exempt from bankruptcy rules, so its as close to guaranteed money for these institutions. They know all too well what the breaking point is in terms of how much money can be extracted from families and students before they decide against going to schools. Once that tuition money is freed up and they are no longer paying for that, I find it highly likely that you will quickly see schools recouping that money from other areas such as room and board fees, as well as adding extra semesters to degree programs in order to lengthen the amount of time room and board expenses can be charged.
The problem with our higher education system is that its too expensive and the costs don't line up with inflation, likely because of government tinkering in handing out free money, as well as those lobbyists involved from the education industry. Much like health care, we need to solve the root cause of the cost issue before we can just decide that we need to start giving it away. Find the issues with the cost, address those so that a larger percentage of folks can actually afford it without it becoming a life long financial burden, then look at helping those who truly need the help and want to further their education. Its a simple approach, that unfortunately has a very complex root cause (in terms of the cost) to fix.
We "gave away" tuition decades ago. Most of the rest of the civilized world does it as well. Room and board is not an issue. And public universities should not be free to do whatever they want to squeeze the students when they are funded by the tax payers. Thats how every civilized country does it. They get a budget and they have to stick to it. Its just recently with Reaganomics and the donor class massively increasing their power and wealth that the situation is getting outrageous. Squeezing the middle class as much as possible is always on the agenda of the donor class.
There is another problem besides the cost of college. When I attend a UC in CA, my engineering classes were full. There was no more room for more people. The problem aren't the lecture classes, but the lab classes. There are limitations on how large the groups can in the lab classes. My professor said that three years ago before our class, the average size per group was three, but on average our class had four. Creating groups larger than four will significantly reduce the quality of the labs. I don't think the problem now is the cost of attending college, but there are limitation for majors that make heavy use of special labs. Environmental and chemical engineers use the same wet labs that have special equipment like liquid-liquid extractor, wetted wall, aeration mixture, CSTR's, and many more. Unless Clinton plans to increase the capacity of public schools, providing more financial support will do nothing. Many public schools are already near maximum capacity for certain majors. In material engineering, use even more expensive equipment like SEM, TEM, ect.
How does Clinton plan to pay for this? Personally, I am against Clinton's free tuition. There is enough financial assistance as is now. If Clinton free tuition comes to pass, then I want more strict requirements. There are many students to be blunt are a waste of tax payers money.
We "gave away" tuition decades ago. Most of the rest of the civilized world does it as well. Room and board is not an issue. And public universities should not be free to do whatever they want to squeeze the students when they are funded by the tax payers. Thats how every civilized country does it. They get a budget and they have to stick to it. Its just recently with Reaganomics and the donor class massively increasing their power and wealth that the situation is getting outrageous. Squeezing the middle class as much as possible is always on the agenda of the donor class.
Hmm, so no real concern about the legitimate issue I bring up, and how to address it?
Just bellyaching about this country not being civilized, and more leftist demonizing of everything.
If people cared to discuss issues rather than blame and deflect, it would get us all a lot further.
Hmm, so no real concern about the legitimate issue I bring up, and how to address it?
Just bellyaching about this country not being civilized, and more leftist demonizing of everything.
If people cared to discuss issues rather than blame and deflect, it would get us all a lot further.
I told you how to address it. Other countries see education as an investment, not a vehicle to squeeze the working class and middle class as much as possible. You argue through that lense of squeezing. If PUBLIC universities decide to start squeezing as you think they will, there should be penalties for it. After all, these are PUBLIC universities with a budget made up of tax payer money. Let the private institutions squeeze the students as much as they want. The public universities should serve the public good. This used to be the case in America during the more civilized period of our country before Reaganomics kicked in and the massive transfer of wealth to the top got out of hand.
Democrats, there is no Santa Clause with elves making free college. When you were a kid, your parents bought those presents. Tax payers will buy this free education.
With this proposal, instead of paying for your college with a loan, you'll be paying for it out of your paycheck for your entire working career. You won't have the choice of how much you spend on your education. The government will decide how much your education costs you.
And these kids will be tax payers some day. They are also not considering that college costs goes up so will there taxes. They'll be paying the piper for the rest of their lives and that college education would have cost them triple, quadruple then they would have paid for it if they hadn't bought into FREE college.
I understand why it's tempting but it's a lie kids, don't buy it. Nothing is free. The only people it will benefit is the crony capitalist colleges, you'll be funding their retirement while you work and they sit on the beach.
You use the German system as a way to argue that America cant do it. Its pure deception. Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Belgium, France etc etc etc all provide tuition free college. Most have a system very similar to the US. It is nothing like the German system (where LESS THAN HALF of college students even graduated from "gymnasium" as its easy to get admitted to college through lots of paths not only gymnasium). Of course we can afford $70 billion in tuition free college. Its 0.4% of GDP. And such an investment provides massive benefits down the line, especially for working stiffs. Its totally absurd that working class Americans are fighting tooth and nail to make sure they and their family members get as few ladders of opportunities as possible.
no. you project.
I spoke up about the German system because there were pages of discussion that contrast the german system with ours while only talking about how they pay for college tuition.
I didn't bring the Germans up. OTHERS DID. In fact it started because on page two someone supportive of America paying for college tuition, linked to a story about Germany providing free tuition.
you need to rub up against some facts before you step.
and once again you provide all kinds of stuff no one will believe because you don't back it up.
you must be a product of an American education... recently... as you don't know what it means to provide documentation of your rambling assertions.
Its amazing how many countries offer their students literally free education...an educated populace goes to work and each generation is more educated than the last. Disgusting to think you must pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to get an education. Its not enough to make me vote for Clinton but I agree we need a different system put in place. I will push my kids to look at Europe for college.
Colleges in those countries are very selective though. Most American high school graduates will not qualify.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
