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K.. I posted a link to this on another thread about the issue.. but I felt it was important enough that it deserved it's own.. VERY excellent article written by someone who is both an American and Canadian with experiences in BOTH countires on the medical issues. Here is the link;
MYTHS AND MEMES ABOUT SINGLE-PAYER
HEALTH INSURANCE IN THE UNITED STATES:
A REBUTTAL TO CONSERVATIVE CLAIMS
Some very good and informative reading.. Amazing how much corporate America and in this case the insurance companies put out so much propoganda AGAINST something this country so sorely needs and a lot of people fall for it.. These insurance companies care nothing about us and would do anything to keep us from the real truth! [/SIZE]
1. Canada’s health care system is “socialized medicine.”
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False. In socialized medical systems, the doctors work directly for the state. In Canada (and many other countries with universal care), doctors run their own private practices, just like they do in the US. The only difference is that every doctor deals with one insurer, instead of 150. And that insurer is the provincial government, which is accountable to the legislature and the voters if the quality of coverage is allowed to slide.
The proper term for this is “single-payer insurance.” In talking to Americans about it, the better phrase is “Medicare for all.”
Ok. It is socialized medicine in Canada. Doctors are private but they ALL get money form the GOVERMENT. When goverment(of people) pays for everyone creating a COLLECTIVE system, its called socialism.
What is so hard to understand?
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2. Doctors are hurt financially by single-payer health care.
That is mostly a comparative attack by U.S medical industry on Canadian health system. Doctors in U.S in a lot of fields earn more money that in Canada but Canadian doctors don't die hungry either. I am not takng any sides on this statment.
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3. Wait times in Canada are horrendous.
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You can hear the bitching about it no matter where you live, though. The percentage of Canadians who’d consider giving up their beloved system consistently languishes in the single digits.
Well Duh! You have to just look at the polls of medicare and medicaid receiptants, they are also satisfied and love the system---despite the paper work and medicaid receiver having to wait a long time(especially now in california). Why do they still like it-------because its free to most of them. Everyone loves a free stuff no matter how bad it gets because the alternative is paid lunch.
5, 6 ---- No arguments from me and not really important.
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7. Canadian drugs are not the same.
More preposterious bogosity. They are exactly the same drugs, made by the same pharmaceutical companies, often in the same factories. The Canadian drug distribution system, however, has much tighter oversight; and pharmacies and pharmacists are more closely regulated. If there is a difference in Canadian drugs at all, they’re actually likely to be safer.
Canadian drug prices are not the same. They are cheaper.
There is no data to proof that Canadian drug are safer. They are produced by the same company but U.S companies sell their drugs cheaper in canadian because of goverment regulation and because of the concept called 'price discrimination' (Google it) in the industry.
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Also: pharmacists here dispense what the doctors tell them to dispense, the first time, without moralizing. I know. It’s amazing.
For a women who is pro-choice, yes, I hate this new pharamacists is some states that refuse to give out morning after pills and etc but this has nothing to do with debate of the health care system. Trust me, if it was up to me to exchange Canada for most of the southern states(well except florida), I would do it. I have been to Canada for vacations and I love Canada!
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8. Publicly-funded programs will inevitably lead to rationed health care, particularly for the elderly.
Private companies in a way ratione their health care and goverment will too---IF---they are forced to reduce their spending and not just print more money or just increases reveunes via taxes.
However, the article also had this statement, which proves the point that Canada just ration
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[6. Canada’s care plan only covers the basics. You’re still on your own for any extras, including prescription drugs. And you still have to pay for it.
True — but not as big an issue as you might think.
This is in a way is rationing, neverthless not as much as some free market supporter would have you believe.
For example should we provide a hip replacment survey---cost very high---for a 90 year old or save that money and pay for five women pregancy? That would be serious rationing.
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9. People won’t be responsible for their own health if they’re not being forced to pay for the consequences.
This difference is expressed in a few different ways. First: Canadians tend to think of tending to one’s health as one of your duties as a citizen. You do what’s right because you don’t want to take up space in the system, or put that burden on your fellow taxpayers. Second, “taking care of yourself” has a slightly expanded definition here, which includes a greater emphasis on public health. Canadians are serious about not coming to work if you’re contagious, and seeing a doctor ASAP if you need to. Staying healthy includes not only diet and exercise; but also taking care to keep your germs to yourself, avoiding stress, and getting things treated while they’re still small and cheap to fix.
Total B.S
It is true that if its free or very cheap people will use it without any respect for the cost. But the same thing happens when your employeers buys your health care and you have a so low premiums, you think its almost free.
Its just human nature and denying it is just stupid and the article writer is just lying.
A example to prove my point.............Want me to lower the interest rate for home loans---oh, like adjusted interest rate of 1% or 2% instead of what they should be---and see a home boom. NO, such a thing won't happen. Well Feds did lower the rate and help increase Adjusted mortage rates in the private market and it did lead to a boom---a artifical boom.
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10. This all sounds great — but the taxes to cover it are just unaffordable. And besides, isn’t the system in bad financial shape?
False. On one hand, our annual Canadian tax bite runs about 10% higher than our U.S. taxes did.
Reply is in the writer own words
Quote:
And True — but only because this is a universal truth that we need to make our peace with. Yes, the provincial plans are always struggling. So is every single publicly-funded health care system in the world, including the VA and Medicare. There’s always tension between what the users of the system want, and what the taxpayers are willing to pay.
Medicare and Medicaid and Social security is socialism too.
MY view------------ More free market and competition. We should have a catastrophic coverage for children under 18 only(whoses parents can't afford to do such a thing) but nothing more.
Choose your doctors --- during initial phase---just like to pick a car or any other thing---by comparing them. The same goes for most of the surgeries.
The idea by some that if you are in a accident, do you want the poeple who come to your aid to ask you 'which place do you want to choose base on price'?
Well, how many times have that happened and for most of the operations people have a lot of time to decide for themselves.
Last edited by jessica1000; 02-23-2008 at 12:58 AM..
Ok. It is socialized medicine in Canada. Doctors are private but they ALL get money form the GOVERMENT. When goverment(of people) pays for everyone creating a COLLECTIVE system, its called socialism.
What is so hard to understand?
And what is so hard to understand that even if you want to call it Socialism it's a "BAD" Thing.. we have it in other aspects of our socieity and we are still no where near becoming "communist" for crying out loud! A complete Social State is one that allthe employees of the system are government paid.. which in a UHI or NHI system is not the case, as many would have you or others believe.
That is mostly a comparative attack by U.S medical industry on Canadian health system. Doctors in U.S in a lot of fields earn more money that in Canada but Canadian doctors don't die hungry either. I am not takng any sides on this statment.
And you left out an important portion of that argument.. they may make more ei:have more coming in..but they pay out significantly more to staff to weed through the "free markets" endless paperwork and hours fighting the insurance companies.
Well Duh! You have to just look at the polls of medicare and medicaid receiptants, they are also satisfied and love the system---despite the paper work and medicaid receiver having to wait a long time(especially now in california). Why do they still like it-------because its free to most of them. Everyone loves a free stuff no matter how bad it gets because the alternative is paid lunch.
First.. the article writer was talking about wait times FOR ALL!! NOT MEDICARE/MEDICAID PATIENTS. and was talking about how even those that have "private" insurance have wait times for elective surgeries etc. AND this exists also based on where you live in the U.S. More rural areas of course have less resources etc. We're paying much more for what we should be getting for alot less through an NHI and with wait problems for things in the U.S. Sometiems you have to wait WEEKS to get an appointment with Dr of your choice here no matter what kind of insurance you have! Even with your primary care. A UHI did not cause that because we dont' have one and a UHI will not make it worse.
5, 6 ---- No arguments from me and not really important.
Canadian drug prices are not the same. They are cheaper.
There is no data to proof that Canadian drug are safer. They are produced by the same company but U.S companies sell their drugs cheaper in canadian because of goverment regulation and because of the concept called 'price discrimination' (Google it) in the industry.
Um.. if Canadian drugs are the same drugs we get in the U.S but they pay less for them than we don't need to prove wether they are safer or not.. they are the same for less.
For a women who is pro-choice, yes, I hate this new pharamacists is some states that refuse to give out morning after pills and etc but this has nothing to do with debate of the health care system. Trust me, if it was up to me to exchange Canada for most of the southern states(well except florida), I would do it. I have been to Canada for vacations and I love Canada!
Private companies in a way ratione their health care and goverment will too---IF---they are forced to reduce their spending and not just print more money or just increases reveunes via taxes.
However, the article also had this statement, which proves the point that Canada just ration
This is in a way is rationing, neverthless not as much as some free market supporter would have you believe.
For example should we provide a hip replacment survey---cost very high---for a 90 year old or save that money and pay for five women pregancy? That would be serious rationing.
Um.. these are the SAME rationing that private health insurance does.. and I believe MORE rationing occurs with private health insurance because their ONLY motivation is proteccting their wallet, NOT the patient for their profit. I'd rather not have some company only interested in their profits doing this "rationing" like they've been doing.. .because when that is happening guess who looses.. we all do!
Total B.S
It is true that if its free or very cheap people will use it without any respect for the cost. But the same thing happens when your employeers buys your health care and you have a so low premiums, you think its almost free.
Its just human nature and denying it is just stupid and the article writer is just lying.
A example to prove my point.............Want me to lower the interest rate for home loans---oh, like adjusted interest rate of 1% or 2% instead of what they should be---and see a home boom. NO, such a thing won't happen. Well Feds did lower the rate and help increase Adjusted mortage rates in the private market and it did lead to a boom---a artifical boom.
Reply is in the writer own words
Medicare and Medicaid and Social security is socialism too.
MY view------------ More free market and competition. We should have a catastrophic coverage for children under 18 only(whoses parents can't afford to do such a thing) but nothing more.
Choose your doctors --- during initial phase---just like to pick a car or any other thing---by comparing them. The same goes for most of the surgeries.
The idea by some that if you are in a accident, do you want the poeple who come to your aid to ask you 'which place do you want to choose base on price'?
Well, how many times have that happened and for most of the operations people have a lot of time to decide for themselves.
Free market only means.. lets sell more insurance for a profit. Profit is what is killing healthcare in the U.S particularly where insurance is concerned. Your "free market"leads to several companies with different ruls, methods etc.. adding to Dr's overhead and administrative costs.. so while the Dr. has to take care of patients he has to spend almost an equal amout of time advocatng for hte patient with the bean counter on the other end of the phone (or he has to hire staff to do it too) to get what his patient truly needs. As a lot of the information I pointed to shows, we have tried to constantly "fix" this system that quite frankly can't and will never truly work.. When it comes to peoples lives you can't have room for a company to "profit".. and by company I mean the insurance companies. There is a huge conflict of two very different interests at work.. the Dr and the patient are interested ONLY in the patients health and outcome of needed treatments that will make them healthier or help them live.. the insurance company only cares about MONEY.. their need to increase their profits. And when they clash , people die so that someone else can line their pockets.. all at the expense of someone else's good health and I find it disgusting.. They haven't been able to fix it despite tries over the last 20 years and it has only gotten increasingly worse and has started to completely fall apart.
A bandaid is no longer the answer... a real change into a true, working system is what is needed.
BTW, one reason, not the only one, but one reason drugs are cheaper in Canada than the US is, if a drug is defective in some way - and causes harm to the patient, damages are limited to compensatory damagers. No punitive damages are allowed.
In the US, in a similar case, if compensatory damages are, say, $10,000, the punitive damage award is unlimited.
One of the components of the price you pay in the US is liability insurance to cover the drug mfg
Want to lower the price of drugs in the US? Put a cap on punitive damages
BTW, one reason, not the only one, but one reason drugs are cheaper in Canada than the US is, if a drug is defective in some way - and causes harm to the patient, damages are limited to compensatory damagers. No punitive damages are allowed.
In the US, in a similar case, if compensatory damages are, say, $10,000, the punitive damage award is unlimited.
One of the components of the price you pay in the US is liability insurance to cover the drug mfg
Want to lower the price of drugs in the US? Put a cap on punitive damages
I don't doubt that is true.. and that is a seperate issue that does need to be addressed.. our currently health insurance system, or lack there of, doesn't address it either.. and UHI is dealing with coverage for healthcare for all citizens. Litigation is a separate issue that does need to be addressed..
I did menitno on another board that part of damages awarded are for "future medical costs" since once you have life long problem medically in the U.S it is highly unlikely you will be able to get coverage or affordable coverage.. so when someone sues they need to sue for future out of pocket costs to care for medical problems as a result of the malpractice or the problem with the drugs..etc. With a UHI or NHI system everyone is covered and there is no fear that there will be excessive out of pocket expenses for the person injured..and so "future medical costs" damages will not be needed to be rewarded in such cases.
But another very important reason that drugs are less elsewhere also have to do with the bargaining power of the country as one large group purchasing in bulk.
I don't doubt that is true.. and that is a seperate issue that does need to be addressed.. our currently health insurance system, or lack there of, doesn't address it either.. and UHI is dealing with coverage for healthcare for all citizens. Litigation is a separate issue that does need to be addressed..
Actually TM - they have to be addressed TOGETHER - for, if you implement a UHI, WITHOUT addressing the issue of malpractice litigation - if it is not dealt with AT THE SAME TIME, I can assure you Doctors will quit in droves.
Let me give you a real example: In the State of Nevada, Malpractice punitive damage awards got so out of hand, OB/GYN doctors left the state - If you get pregnant, and live in Las Vegas, chances are really great, you will have to go out of state to find an OB/GYN to do your pre-natal care. Right now - today - 2008.
BOTH issues have to be addressed - at the same time
TM - Say your son had a bad back and got operated on, but the doctor was careless causing your son to be crippled for life. The doctor was found to be negligent. UHI will pay for his wheelchair, back brace, and future treatments, etc. Your son is unable to feed himself and take care of his personal needs. Are you satisfied with that?
Actually TM - they have to be addressed TOGETHER - for, if you implement a UHI, WITHOUT addressing the issue of malpractice litigation - if it is not dealt with AT THE SAME TIME, I can assure you Doctors will quit in droves.
Let me give you a real example: In the State of Nevada, Malpractice punitive damage awards got so out of hand, OB/GYN doctors left the state - If you get pregnant, and live in Las Vegas, chances are really great, you will have to go out of state to find an OB/GYN to do your pre-natal care. Right now - today - 2008.
BOTH issues have to be addressed - at the same time
PA is headed down that same road. The deep pockets mentality at its best. Sue them and sue them big. Same reason auto insurance is so high.
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