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Many people, in fact most I believe, fail to recognize how they, themselves, have been the target of thought control and had their views shaped by the "powers that be".
Honestly, everyone is brain washed by 'the powers that be.' People in Socialist countries have been brain washed by socialist propaganda too. Many people devote their whole lives to find the 'truth' and near death admit they know little. “The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
― Socrates The hidden stone — Ryoanji zen rock garden | Japaneasy
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Originally Posted by Kode
That has happened with the word "socialism." What you are referring to here is not socialism. It is rather social programs in the context of capitalism. Social programs have always to one extent or another been part of capitalism. Such programs are necessary to keep people from rebelling and discarding capitalism entirely. So we are bought off with public education, the post office, Social Security, Medicare, fire departments, police departments, OSHA, the FDA, the EPA, welfare, food stamps, highway departments, and on and on and on.
"Socialism" means a government dedicated to worker control.
"I don't see the difference between social programs and socialism, but lets pretend I'm brain washed to help extend your POV. You said that ""Socialism" means a government dedicated to worker control.". . Well then, the workers in this instance are the elite. Much like the US government in the 18th and 19th century making white males the elite. Therefore the unemployed would be the second class citizens. A problem seen in many Socialist Governments, who decides who works and who doesn't? Who gets the better jobs and who gets the s*** work? In having a government that supports worker control, wouldn't be fare to say that government would be supported by workers. Wouldn't a corrupt government just give jobs to the people that supported them, this is what happened in the USSR if I am correct.
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Originally Posted by Kode
-for a short time The effort to establish socialism failed there as it also did in China.
That is the point, it couldn't hold water. China still has a strong socialist presence and is in the continual works to switch to a more capitalistic system. Although it is very hard, as is when any nation changes major polices.
The means of establishing it and what it will look like is being worked out at this moment. It is in it's initial and experimental stage. And early failure is expected until methods and strategies are worked out.
Ha, by who and where? If it can work I haven't seen it or heard anyone gaining REAL GROUND. Yes, in truth, in the big picture we are only two little insignificant people chatting. The real test are the governments that set this up. We have already seen many fail, some are doing ok for the challenges they faced but also had strong leader behind them. IMO, it doesn't matter what type of government you have, it moreover depends on the character of the people in that country.
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Originally Posted by Kode
what? Come again?
Conservatism as a political and social philosophy promotes retaining traditional social institutions in the context of culture and civilization. Some conservatives seek to preserve things as they are, emphasizing stability and continuity, while others, called reactionaries, oppose modernism and seek a return to "the way things were". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism Conservatism | Definition of Conservatism by Merriam-Webster
Actually, it IS intended to, and I'll explain below.
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and it doesn't, result in the rich getting filthy rich at the expense of the rest in those countries. The issue that escapes you is class orientation.
Not at all. I've explained why the U.S. has MUCH more income inequality than European and Scandinavian countries. It's simple math. I'll quote an economist on this, so you don't think it's just my opinion:
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[Economist Anatole] "Kaletsky argues that over-reliance on progressives taxes creates “a perverse incentive for governments to promote income inequality. If the solvency of the state and the ability to fund basic services for the poorest people in society depends on the rich getting even richer, it is tempting for even the most progressive politicians to support widening inequalities.”
And there you have it, it's a result of the simple math unintended negative consequences of our country's over-reliance on progressive taxes. The federal tax base is too narrow, the top 1% pays BY FAR the highest tax rates, therefore in order to maximize tax revenue, the federal government makes sure the rich become even richer.
He who takes up arms shall be defeated by the greater power of the ruling class. The revolution must be peaceful, orderly, and gradual. And it must start by organizing to cultivate the next generation of politicians who are certain to serve the people and not the corporate powers.
I agree with peaceful resolutions to our problems. I think the convention of states is a very real possibility if Washington DC keeps alienating states with their tyranny. The Founding Fathers left us with many protections in their wisdom.
I don't see the difference between social programs and socialism
Then you didn't absorb what I said about it once. Will you absorb it a second time? Let's see... social programs happen typically in a capitalist economy and those programs are mainly to buy off the working class so the capitalist may survive.
Socialism is an economic system without any presence of capitalism. Instead, workers spend some of their workday making decision relating to running the business.
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You said that " 'Socialism' means a government dedicated to worker control.". . Well then, the workers in this instance are the elite. Much like the US government in the 18th and 19th century making white males the elite. Therefore the unemployed would be the second class citizens.
Wow. You need to bone up on this. Your understanding is less than zero I'm sorry to say. A person does not become "elite" when he/she works alongside the other workers and participates as they do.
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Wouldn't a corrupt government just give jobs to the people that supported them, this is what happened in the USSR if I am correct.
If you have a corrupt government you don't have socialism. They are mutually exclusive.
Actually, it IS intended to, and I'll explain below. Not at all. I've explained why the U.S. has MUCH more income inequality than European and Scandinavian countries. It's simple math. I'll quote an economist on this, so you don't think it's just my opinion:
And there you have it, it's a result of the simple math unintended negative consequences of our country's over-reliance on progressive taxes. The federal tax base is too narrow, the top 1% pays BY FAR the highest tax rates, therefore in order to maximize tax revenue, the federal government makes sure the rich become even richer.
No matter how you structure taxes, a rich person will pay more than an average person. So your incentive remains.
It wasn't even this bad and the government not near as corrupt as today, just before the 1861 Split... Not revolution, but a split.
I see this time that's coming, a full on assault on the elite, that feel we are just peasants.
I know I am not alone. Communism will be run out of this nation, one way or the other and the Constitution restored to its full glory, for the individual, not destroyed for the socialist collective groups.
The root cause of the crisis in 1861 was human bondage as practiced in a certain region of the country, not political corruption.
And if people with these kinds of kooky ideas ever do revolt and win, then this country will quickly start looking like a third-world dung heap.
I'd love to see the hillbillies with their guns keep up our technology sector, international financial networks, infrastructure, healthcare and medical research, etc.
Those "hillbillies with guns" are the ones who make your stuff, grow your food and defend this country in the military. When they ask for the constitution to be obeyed and their freedoms protected then they face demeaning comments about them. I have to ask, where would this country be if we were all socialist peace loving san fransico hippies. What if everyone was a special snowflake who needed safe spaces to be protected from "hillbillies with guns" and their more traditional view of the world?
A revolution IS in fact coming. Its just not at all like most people seem to discuss.
OK time for me to get up on my soapbox and preach about how tech is going to solve everything like some lunatic. Yes I know im not in the mainstream here. But this stuff is what I live and breath.
Massive unemployment is coming. Look for retail, food, restaurants, and drivers to rapidly undergo a loss of jobs.
The drivers is simple for most, we've seen the self driving cars, and many of us have even been in one at this point. (Teslas qualify...barely).
Retail though. Lets look at whats going to happen when self driving cars and drones come about. First-Amazon will deliver in under a hour, and for a rush fee will do it in 15 minutes or less. How? Be removing humans. They're on their way with automated warehouses, they're testing the drones, and even if the drones do not work out....remember the self driving cars? Yeah. Amazon will crush almost every local store. Even Walmart is going to get their lunch eaten.
Restaurants and fast food. The fast food most of you get since hey, we've seen the automated burger machines, and we already have automated fry machines, and soda machines. But I mentioned Restaurants. Will some stay alive? Absolutely. But the cut throat restaurant businesses are going to get even more desperate. And...it wont be the food that will draw customers. It will be the ambience. So why do I say this? I've seen demos of automated kitchen machines that will be at a reasonable cost. (well...if you're in the top 20% income bracket at first say). And these things will be able to make thousands of different meals, all extraordinary.
Movie theatres? NOPE! VR and AR is here. Go try a demo of the Vive, Occulus Rift (not the phone ones), or the new playstation VR (which is the MOST comfortable and clear of all of them!). Movies in 3D-voila. huge screen, no sticky floor unless you are a slob.
Farmers? Have you SEEN some of the new automated equipment? Everything from automated plows, to grape picking robots.
And the list goes on and on. And thats in the near future!!
So massive unemployment will result in...riots, chaos, anarchy. No really. When so many are on the edge, if you unemploy hard working people, and leave them to starve, theres going to be a problem.
Or.....as this wave of automation comes along...so does vast amounts of wealth, and massive deflation. (Deflation is very very bad ok-just accept that). Which means we need? Inflation! And thus basic income will come about. As the wealthy become wealthy beyond what anyone can imagine today, they will most likely be able to link higher basic incomes (to a certain point) with vastly larger real incomes for them. End result? A basic income thats sufficient to meet all basic needs (and even some not so basic ones), plus enough to allow a person to create opportunity. Some will waste this, many however will not.
So....will there be a revolution? Depends on how we handle that gap where tons are unemployed, and vastly more wealth is coming in. But I dont think this political stuff will. 99% of the people in the US dont care about politics like so many here do (me included).
No matter how you structure taxes, a rich person will pay more than an average person. So your incentive remains.
No, the incentive doesn't remain in a regressive tax system like European and Scandinavian countries have. Why? In a progressive tax system, the tax base is very narrow. In a regressive tax system, the tax base is very broad. Taxing 100% of the income earners yields MUCH more tax revenue than taxing less than 60% of the income earners. Therefore, in the progressive tax system, the incentive is to make the rich even richer in order to maximize tax revenue and make up for those who don't pay.
Simple math.
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