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Old 03-05-2008, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,714 posts, read 8,448,676 times
Reputation: 1052

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Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
Thank you for weighing in. Is anyone out there listening? I don't think so. CHeck out Massachusetts and how well their little plan is working.

I keep posting this and evidently NO ONE IS LISTENING!!!! Medicare and Medicaid are UHI. There is already heathcare available for the indigent. There is already healthcare available if you are over 65. These are gov't run programs. HELLO!! Everyone out there happy w/ their Medicare and Medicaid? I hope so! Cause take a good look - that is what you are gonna get if you get universal coverage.

Oh - and btw - how are Medicaid and Medicare paid for? Wanna check out their budgets and how those costs are subsidized?

Anyone who cannot add up the figures and see YOUR TAXES are gonna go up . . . I just don't know what to say! I guess the Universal Healthcare Fairy is gonna somehow magically endow the gov't w/ Fun Money to cover your next MRI. (Oh wait. Maybe you just won't GET that MRI, cause your healthcare is gonna be RATIONED).

See how you like that. The only option you will have to getting that MRI will be to pay for it out of pocket. Hmmmm. Guess the politicians forgot to tell you that part.

You don't seem to believe that the present "system" is broken. How is that?

The point made previously (which I too have made) that health care is a natural monopoly goes right over the head of the Right Wingers. Let's create the largest "risk pool" that's ever been created, then manage it professionally. Get rid of the conflicts of interest and the fraud. Etc. Other Western nations are doing it, but somehow the USA can't. COP-OUT!
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Old 03-05-2008, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Moon Over Palmettos
5,978 posts, read 19,859,409 times
Reputation: 5102
One has to understand, I mean truly understand and not just read about it, any system before you can suggest a way to fix it. Unfortunately, healthcare is something that is truly complex. Ani's posts is from someone who understands how it works. She's not implying it cannot be improved, but most people approach fixing it as if all it took was a magic wand.
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Old 03-05-2008, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,714 posts, read 8,448,676 times
Reputation: 1052
"One has to understand, I mean truly understand and not just read about it, ..."

It's also in the financial interest of certain health care system "players" to keep the present "system" (a meaningless term when used in this context) as INSCRUTABLE as possible, to DEFLECT REFORM in order to continue to line their own pockets.

OK, I say the "system" has had plenty of time to fix itself since the venerable Sen. Bob Dole of Kansas declared in 1993/4 "there's no health care crisis in this country," and IT HASN'T HAPPENED, so the apologists for the status quo LOSE. Let's admit this on all sides, they have LOST THE ARGUMENT, and the present "system" is FATALLY FLAWED and HUGELY WASTEFUL and CORRUPT just like everything else on Wall Street and in Washington, D.C.

Let's START OVER and get it done in a reasonable manner, using all lessons learned from other health care systems ALREADY OPERATING around the world. Someone on this board thinks that the USA hasn't already heavily BORROWED IDEAS from elsewhere in its history? Guess again!

Also, no one has addressed the fact that doctors are leaving the profession in DROVES. Why would that be? You want your kid to become a doctor? Why would that be? Don't you understand how badly being a doctor in the future is going to SUCK until the present "system" is overhauled?

Last edited by ParkTwain; 03-05-2008 at 11:24 AM..
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Old 03-05-2008, 11:36 AM
 
20,187 posts, read 23,794,371 times
Reputation: 9283
The system is flawed. I think everyone can agree with that but so IS the government. Trading one flaw for another doesn't fix anything and with the government at hand, make it even WORSE. Start over? With what? Lets fire the millions of Americans in the health industry? Or maybe put them out of work for half a year while "you" figure out how you can get someone else to pay for you? Nobody should be forced to pay for anybody for anything. It is not anywhere in any constitution that people have a right to other people's money. You want change and reform, then go for it, but those changes better not be for you to pay less and for me to pay more.
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Old 03-05-2008, 12:30 PM
 
Location: State of Being
35,879 posts, read 77,237,478 times
Reputation: 22751
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkTwain View Post
You don't seem to believe that the present "system" is broken. How is that?

The point made previously (which I too have made) that health care is a natural monopoly goes right over the head of the Right Wingers. Let's create the largest "risk pool" that's ever been created, then manage it professionally. Get rid of the conflicts of interest and the fraud. Etc. Other Western nations are doing it, but somehow the USA can't. COP-OUT!
Park, I remain incredulous at the way you enjoy verbally assaulting me when you are totally off track and obviously have no clue whatsoever about my beliefs on the subject!

I have even stated those very words on other posts - that "our system is broken."

And to call me a Right Winger is downright insulting and I don't appreciate it, so back off. If I am a Right Winger, what are you? A facist? See how stupid that sounds? You have absolutely no idea about my politics but let me assure you, I am not RIGHT WINGER. Is that all you can think to do - label people when you disagree w/ them? Or THINK you disagree?

I have come on this thread to explain things, not to debate them! I have no vested interest, whatsoever, in seeing anything stay the same as far as healthcare, nor do I have a vested interest in seeing things change (unless the change is gonna raise my taxes, and I am pretty LIBERTARIAN on that issue).

And Park, the largest risk pool has been created. It is called MEDICARE. (I would say DUH but I am trying not to be rude here, despite your continued personal attacks on me).
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Old 03-05-2008, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,714 posts, read 8,448,676 times
Reputation: 1052
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
Park, I remain incredulous at the way you enjoy verbally assaulting me when you are totally off track and obviously have no clue whatsoever about my beliefs on the subject!

I have even stated those very words on other posts - that "our system is broken."

I was not directing political labels toward you individually at all. However, why did Bob Dole in 1993 say that there was no crisis in US health care? Whose bread was he buttering?

How can Medicare be the largest risk pool when not all Americans fall under it? When you say things like that, I have to doubt the cogency of your thinking.

I'm not understanding your "explanations" at all. Lots of detail, no coherence.
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Old 03-05-2008, 12:55 PM
 
Location: State of Being
35,879 posts, read 77,237,478 times
Reputation: 22751
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkTwain View Post
"One has to understand, I mean truly understand and not just read about it, ..."

It's also in the financial interest of certain health care system "players" to keep the present "system" (a meaningless term when used in this context) as INSCRUTABLE as possible, to DEFLECT REFORM in order to continue to line their own pockets.

OK, I say the "system" has had plenty of time to fix itself since the venerable Sen. Bob Dole of Kansas declared in 1993/4 "there's no health care crisis in this country," and IT HASN'T HAPPENED, so the apologists for the status quo LOSE. Let's admit this on all sides, they have LOST THE ARGUMENT, and the present "system" is FATALLY FLAWED and HUGELY WASTEFUL and CORRUPT just like everything else on Wall Street and in Washington, D.C.

Let's START OVER and get it done in a reasonable manner, using all lessons learned from other health care systems ALREADY OPERATING around the world. Someone on this board thinks that the USA hasn't already heavily BORROWED IDEAS from elsewhere in its history? Guess again!

Also, no one has addressed the fact that doctors are leaving the profession in DROVES. Why would that be? You want your kid to become a doctor? Why would that be? Don't you understand how badly being a doctor in the future is going to SUCK until the present "system" is overhauled?
Park, this is drivel. Sorry. Drivel. Docs are not leaving in DROVES. Where the he$$ did you get that idea????? The medical profession is aging so older physicians are retiring. 30% of physicians will be retiring by 2011. More than half of physicians over 55 would go part time if feasible (AMA Study, published, 7,2007) More than 50% of physicians in training are female.

Physicians still make the highest salaries in this nation other than CEOs of major corporations. They can't do that in other countries,either, as their systems CAP salaries. I don't know where you get the info you get, but you are sorely misinformed - or just plain delusional.

Here are the stats about your "players" - 1/3 of the hospitals in this nation make money; 1/3 lose money; and 1/3 break even. Those are gross estimates but can be backed up. On average, hospitals have a net income on operations of about 1.5 %, wh/ is insufficient for replacement of technology, facilities, and development of needed new services. And no, I didn't just make all that up. CMS tracks all this as do other professional organizations.

Now you tell me . . . how would you like running a business that realizes a net income on operations of about 1.5% annually? These are the people you are railing against? The "players" who are corrupt?

And CMS - Medicare - you think they are wasteful? They are using your tax dollars to provide care . . . and they cap prices on drugs and procedures - but you think they are "corrupt?"

I am sorry - you have lost me, Sir.

As for Bob Dole, now I will admit, he and Liddy are personal friends.

Last edited by brokensky; 03-05-2008 at 12:55 PM.. Reason: wrong date - edited
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Old 03-05-2008, 01:05 PM
 
Location: State of Being
35,879 posts, read 77,237,478 times
Reputation: 22751
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkTwain View Post
I was not directing political labels toward you individually at all. However, why did Bob Dole in 1993 say that there was no crisis in US health care? Whose bread was he buttering?

How can Medicare be the largest risk pool when not all Americans fall under it? When you say things like that, I have to doubt the cogency of your thinking.

I'm not understanding your "explanations" at all. Lots of detail, no coherence.
First of all, I have never read that quote from Dole, but assuming it is factual (and wondering what context it was being said in) I would assume that Dole meant we have plenty of healthcare in this country - that the crisis is not w/ the delivery of healthcare, it is w/ the consumption of it.

And I totally stand by my statement: Medicare is the largest "risk pool," as you put it, in this country, and only growing w/ the greying of America. Just b/c you don't like the demographics of the risk pool, doesn't make it something other than a "risk pool."

As for my not being coherent, perhaps the problem lies on your end - and has to do w/ comprehension.

Last edited by brokensky; 03-05-2008 at 01:11 PM.. Reason: add info. delete, change order
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Old 03-05-2008, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,714 posts, read 8,448,676 times
Reputation: 1052
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
First of all, I have never read that quote from Dole, but assuming it is factual (and wondering what context it was being said in) I would assume that Dole meant we have plenty of healthcare in this country - that the crisis is not w/ the delivery of healthcare, it is w/ the consumption of it..

Well I don't know where you were during the congressional debate on the "hillarycare" plans during Clinton's first term.

STATE OF THE UNION: The Republicans; In G.O.P. Response to Clinton, Dole Denies There Is 'Crisis' in Health Care - New York Times

Online NewsHour: The Healthcare Debate following Clinton's Healthcare Address to Congress up through March 1994
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Old 03-05-2008, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,714 posts, read 8,448,676 times
Reputation: 1052
Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
Park, this is drivel. Sorry. Drivel. Docs are not leaving in DROVES. Where the he$$ did you get that idea?????

So you dispute what is found in articles like these:

Frustrated physicians find careers outside of medicine - Denver Business Journal:
//
In a survey released last month by the Massachusetts Medical Society, 28 percent of doctors said they were contemplating a career change due to the practice environment. Those numbers grew to 56 percent for neurosurgeons, 40 percent for OB/GYNs and 36 percent for ER doctors.

One-quarter of residents said they would choose another field if they had to begin their education again, according to a recent survey by Merritt, Hawkins & Associates. Residents said they were concerned about malpractice and dealing with managed care and other payers.

The number of applicants to U.S. medical schools has dropped every year since 1996.
//


Changes in Medicine Bring Pain to Healing Profession - New York Times

AMNews: Aug. 6, 2001. Dissatisfied docs may soon be singing 'California, here I go' ... American Medical News

Why are doctors so unhappy? at edwinleap.com

http://www.massdefendhealthcare.org/...l-study-03.pdf


DO YOU EVER USE THE INTERNET TO PERFORM FACTUAL RESEARCH?

Last edited by ParkTwain; 03-05-2008 at 01:18 PM..
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