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Old 02-23-2008, 08:06 PM
 
8,978 posts, read 16,526,688 times
Reputation: 3020

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Grass Fever View Post
It is believed the Founding Fathers were heavily influenced by a few upstate New York tribes, which ultimately led to the conclusion of the Constitution. (1491 by Charles C. Mann)

In short, the Indians knew how to govern their people way better than the rest of the world.
I do remember this--sounds familiar...

 
Old 02-23-2008, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Earth
24,620 posts, read 28,225,576 times
Reputation: 11416
Wild Style, there are many comments being made about our "freedoms" and the world hating us for them and other countries not possessing them. That's the reason why I raised this topic.

In the US we have fewer freedoms than many other countries. We allow personal rights to be frittered away: 1 mile from Bush for "dissent"; urinalysis testing in the workplace; freedom of press? doubtful, and no more than any country in the EU, even Asian countries allow dissent (maybe not Myanmar);

Quote:
Originally Posted by tablemtn View Post
I think the picture is mixed. On one hand, the US has quite strong protections on things like freedom of speech and free expression. Only a handful of European countries protect the range of expression that the US protects. In the US, you can legally espouse your neo-Nazi beliefs while burning the flag and watching violent pornographic material. This is all protected free expression, whereas you can be fined in France for booing during a performance of La Marseillaise, the national anthem of that country.
If you were going to protest the war in Iraq or Bush, your protest zone is about 1 mile away. Did you really have a say in the Iraq War?

Freedom of speech? Your phones are tapped, your email is read, you have urine sampling at your job.

Look at the (closed) Jane Fonda thread, people wanted her killed for using her freedom of speech because they disagreed with her (40 years ago).

People in public office don’t want and vilify atheists:

From http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9553.htm: (broken link)
Even today, unbelievers are relentlessly reviled by many Christian leaders. Consider the following recent statements by U.S. leaders:
• “No, I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.” [President George HW Bush]

• “The fact that we have freedom of religion doesn’t mean we need to try to have freedom from religion.” [President William Jefferson Clinton]

• “Radicals and atheists are destroying families.” [First Lady Hillary Rodham-Clinton]


Our country imprisons people and doesn’t charge them. Our country tortures citizens of other countries, we have secret bases used to “question” people throughout the world; our country overthrows duly elected governments.

Where is there freedom in any of this?
 
Old 02-23-2008, 08:21 PM
 
8,978 posts, read 16,526,688 times
Reputation: 3020
Quote:
Originally Posted by tablemtn View Post
I think the picture is mixed. On one hand, the US has quite strong protections on things like freedom of speech and free expression. Only a handful of European countries protect the range of expression that the US protects. In the US, you can legally espouse your neo-Nazi beliefs while burning the flag and watching violent pornographic material. This is all protected free expression, whereas you can be fined in France for booing during a performance of La Marseillaise, the national anthem of that country.

On the other hand, the US tends to have a much more aggressive and violent police force than other developed western nations. Things like botched SWAT team drug raids where pets and people get shot "by mistake" would probably lead to the resignation of the public safety minister in many countries, while in the US, we just sort of accept it as a fact of life.

There is a sense that the US is much more of a police state in terms of the ability of the cops, border guards, etc. to arbitrarily arrest you, abuse you, etc. There have been incidents of out-of-state drivers being arrested in states like Georgia after being unable to pay traffic tickets on the spot with credit cards or cash, due to fears that they'd simply skip payment otherwise. The feeling is that the authorities can abuse you more in the US, and that people in the US are less-apt to complain about it.

It's a mixed portrait.
Well-balanced thoughts...I DO know the US has a high proportion of its citizens behind bars...certainly a 'mixed bag' is a good way to put it. I DO think the US does have an odd, rare, sort of "puritan guilt" interwoven into its peculiar cuture, and THIS fact contributes at least partially to the 'hate' directed at us. We may be the 'biggest kid on the block' , but other than our SIZE, and prominence, we hardly fit the description of a particularly 'abusive' nation at all...we have LOTS of good will out there. Some of the 'hate' we get, I honestly believe, is because we'll LISTEN to our detractors. The world's a tough place, and there's little admiration for those with a 'guilty conscience'..it attracts the 'sharks' like the smell of blood. Act like you're guilty, and you'll be 'pounced on". Many nations have done HORRIBLE things, but aren't good candidates for feeling guilty---so we just leave them alone.

Related to this 'guilt' may be that we're probably far-and-away the most 'religious' of any leading western nation, and by FAR the most 'fundamentalist'...Some see this as a plus; others insist it's a 'liability'.

A DARKER thought, or 'take' on all this may simply be (and I hope I'm wrong) that the "human animal" just isn't capable of living harmoniously in a nation as large, diversified, and free as the US purports to be...and that the life we've KNOWN may represent the practical limit to our very bold 200-year old "experiment"..that, in plain language, we may have reached our "zenith", and from here on out, we may have to make hard choices, between limiting and cutting back on our allowable "diversity"...OR in simply lowering our expectation of "freedoms"...(which, in some cases, may be the same thing). I sincerely HOPE this isn't the case...but no one's ever "done this" before, so it remains to be seen...

Last edited by macmeal; 02-23-2008 at 08:30 PM..
 
Old 02-23-2008, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Thumb of Michigan
4,494 posts, read 7,466,445 times
Reputation: 2541
Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
If you were going to protest the war in Iraq or Bush, your protest zone is about 1 mile away. Did you really have a say in the Iraq War?

Where is there freedom in any of this?

Ironically enough, to protest the war claiming exempt on federal taxes, you'll be subjected by a terrorist group called the IRS, which wasn't even created out of law. That is, unless, you donate all your money you'd otherwise hand over to Big Brother.

Some freedom there.
 
Old 02-23-2008, 08:31 PM
 
Location: bumcrack Nebraska
438 posts, read 1,506,376 times
Reputation: 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
Wild Style, there are many comments being made about our "freedoms" and the world hating us for them and other countries not possessing them. That's the reason why I raised this topic.

In the US we have fewer freedoms than many other countries. We allow personal rights to be frittered away: 1 mile from Bush for "dissent"; urinalysis testing in the workplace; freedom of press? doubtful, and no more than any country in the EU, even Asian countries allow dissent (maybe not Myanmar);



If you were going to protest the war in Iraq or Bush, your protest zone is about 1 mile away. Did you really have a say in the Iraq War?

Freedom of speech? Your phones are tapped, your email is read, you have urine sampling at your job.

Look at the (closed) Jane Fonda thread, people wanted her killed for using her freedom of speech because they disagreed with her (40 years ago).

People in public office don’t want and vilify atheists:

From http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9553.htm: (broken link)
Even today, unbelievers are relentlessly reviled by many Christian leaders. Consider the following recent statements by U.S. leaders:
• “No, I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.” [President George HW Bush]

• “The fact that we have freedom of religion doesn’t mean we need to try to have freedom from religion.” [President William Jefferson Clinton]

• “Radicals and atheists are destroying families.” [First Lady Hillary Rodham-Clinton]


Our country imprisons people and doesn’t charge them. Our country tortures citizens of other countries, we have secret bases used to “question” people throughout the world; our country overthrows duly elected governments.

Where is there freedom in any of this?
Wow, you sound totally disillusioned. Bitter even. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Americans live the life of their own choosing. We're not perfect, but we are the best country in the world. Every country has skeletons in their closet. The world hates us because we're rich and powerful. You made a list of all the horrible things the U.S. has done. What about the good things? What about the millions we give to combat malaria and AIDS in Africa? Who was there right after the tsunami? Who does the world call on when in need? Everyone b@^&#es about our horrible foreign policy,which does in fact leave much to be desired, but they all want our money and aid when something goes wrong. They want our people buying their crap. So keep talking crap about the U.S.. Hate us all you want. We'll still be there when you're in need.
 
Old 02-23-2008, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Earth
24,620 posts, read 28,225,576 times
Reputation: 11416
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
Your delusion that if we talk about the US, warts and all, that we hate the country.

So what are these freedoms and wonderful things about the US?
That's the OP.

Not bitter, certainly disillusioned, but realistic. My head isn't full of pretty fluffy US flags.
 
Old 02-23-2008, 09:15 PM
 
5,762 posts, read 11,610,020 times
Reputation: 3869
Quote:
A DARKER thought, or 'take' on all this may simply be (and I hope I'm wrong) that the "human animal" just isn't capable of living harmoniously in a nation as large, diversified, and free as the US purports to be...and that the life we've KNOWN may represent the practical limit to our very bold 200-year old "experiment"..that, in plain language, we may have reached our "zenith", and from here on out, we may have to make hard choices, between limiting and cutting back on our allowable "diversity"...OR in simply lowering our expectation of "freedoms"...(which, in some cases, may be the same thing). I sincerely HOPE this isn't the case...but no one's ever "done this" before, so it remains to be seen...
Well, that relates to an aspect of the US which I think contributes to our high prison population and "police state" tendencies: there isn't very good "social enforcement" of the social contract. In a country like Norway, it is extremely rare to remand someone to prison custody during or after a criminal trial. Instead, the convict is given a window of time during which to "report" to serve his sentence. Compliance rates are extremely high under this system, and people rarely abscond. The ones who have absconded - and hence, the ones who get taken straight to Norwegian jail - are mostly "visible immigrants." Which is to say, people who aren't part of "Norwegian" society as such.

Social enforcement can be a very powerful mechanism. A culture with effective social enforcement will have low incarceration and serious crime rates, because the social norms of the culture discourage lawlessness. If you break the law, you have to face the scorn of your family, your community, and to some extent, of your "race." There is a sense that you are abusing your patrimony by being antisocial.

The US has much less of this sort of social enforcement. Instead, we ask our police services to fill that gap. This is not an ideal solution, because police are legal enforcement agents, not social enforcers. Police only have very blunt tools - arrest, citation, confinement, etc. They don't have the ability to exert constant and subtle social pressure against lawbreaking.

The question, I suppose, is whether or not social enforcement will continue to decline, which would mean demands for an even-larger police role in society.
 
Old 02-23-2008, 09:27 PM
 
Location: Earth
24,620 posts, read 28,225,576 times
Reputation: 11416
tablemtn, interesting perspective. I'm going to take some time to consider the possibility of this occurring in the US. It makes sense.
 
Old 02-23-2008, 09:38 PM
 
28 posts, read 65,897 times
Reputation: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Well-balanced thoughts...I DO know the US has a high proportion of its citizens behind bars...certainly a 'mixed bag' is a good way to put it. I DO think the US does have an odd, rare, sort of "puritan guilt" interwoven into its peculiar cuture, and THIS fact contributes at least partially to the 'hate' directed at us. We may be the 'biggest kid on the block' , but other than our SIZE, and prominence, we hardly fit the description of a particularly 'abusive' nation at all...we have LOTS of good will out there. Some of the 'hate' we get, I honestly believe, is because we'll LISTEN to our detractors. The world's a tough place, and there's little admiration for those with a 'guilty conscience'..it attracts the 'sharks' like the smell of blood. Act like you're guilty, and you'll be 'pounced on". Many nations have done HORRIBLE things, but aren't good candidates for feeling guilty---so we just leave them alone.

(...)
I have to disagree with the above. The reason that the US isn't so well-liked in many developing countries is that the US government has often times at some point in the past supported a brutal military dictatorship in that country. It's naive to believe that the US hasn't been abusive in the past in pursuit of its foreign policy interest (much of it in the past half-century centered on keeping the communists out of power at all costs, without regard for human lives).

Especially talking to some South American friends, they often have friends or family that were killed during those dictatorships by the military with US support.

As far as the more wealthy Western countries, the more recent dislike seems to be strongly connected to the Iraq war.
 
Old 02-23-2008, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Here
11,574 posts, read 13,912,819 times
Reputation: 6983
Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
In the US we have fewer freedoms than many other countries. We allow personal rights to be frittered away: 1 mile from Bush for "dissent"; urinalysis testing in the workplace; freedom of press? doubtful, and no more than any country in the EU, even Asian countries allow dissent (maybe not Myanmar);
This is about as lame as your request for "magical freedoms". Yes, our rights have been stripped away from us. I'm afraid to walk outside anymore. I might be sent to a Turkish prison and waterboarded. I'm gonna hot foot it over to Asia ASAP!!


Quote:

If you were going to protest the war in Iraq or Bush, your protest zone is about 1 mile away. Did you really have a say in the Iraq War?
I guess its better to live in those countries were the police/government simply just shoot protesters. I don't know about you but being able to protest without the fear of being shot seems okay with me.

As far as staying a mile away, I've got no issue with that either. Seems a lot of protesters cant control themselves and all hell breaks lose. People love to exercise their right to peaceably assemble but many times the peaceable part goes out the window. Perhaps if people could conduct themselves in a civil manner, there wouldn't be a problem protesting anywhere they like.

Quote:

Freedom of speech? Your phones are tapped, your email is read, you have urine sampling at your job.
I'd say freedom of speech is alive and well in the US. Tapped phones? Don't kid yourself. Unless your burning up the phone lines to Pakistan, theres a pretty good chance nobody gives two shiits about listening in on your little chit-chats. Email?? Yep, their watching!! All those hours spent online. Yep, their on to you! Urine sampling at your job? Now thats a real shock. God forbid an employer doesn't want some coke head working for him. Nor do they want Bob the drunk going cross- country hauling hazardous cargo. Thats a risk any reasonable person would prefer not to take. Let me guess, they are infringing on your rights because what you do away from work is none of their business right?

Freedom of the press? Please tell me your kidding on this one! The press is really muzzled here in the US aren't they?

Quote:

Look at the (closed) Jane Fonda thread, people wanted her killed for using her freedom of speech because they disagreed with her (40 years ago).
This skank propagandized on behalf of the North Vietnamese government, declared American POWs were being treated humanely and condemned U.S. soldiers as "war criminals" and later denounced them as liars for claiming they had been tortured. Yes she's a real hero who was just exercising her freedom of speech.
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