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All this obsession with the brutality of the Aztecs and Mayans. Those people were way down in southern Mexico.
What about the Native Americans who lived in the American colonies like the Iroquois in New York? Here is a sample:
Reverend Father Barthelemy Vimont presented a harrowing example of Iroquois torture that occurred in 1642 in The Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents. In this account he told of an Iroquois war band that captured a small group of Algonquin and himself. Immediately the Iroquois cut off a few fingers from each captive using fish scales. The Iroquois intended to take the captives to their village. On the way one Algonquin woman, realizing what her fate would be, ran into a icy river and drowned herself rather than face the impending torture. Once they had arrived at their captors’ village, the Iroquois made their prisoners sing and dance upon a scaffold. Vimont’s companion, a converted Algonquin named Adrian, wouldn’t sing in the Iroquois’ language, and they slit his fingers lengthwise to cause him intense pain. Next they cleared the scaffold except for one Algonquin named Awessinipin, and they began burning his body with brands. The Iroquois forced an Algonquin woman to take a torch and burn Awessinipin and then killed her when she finally complied. Throughout this entire ordeal the Algonquin man showed no pain. They continued this torture throughout the night, building to a fervor, finally ending at sunrise by cutting his scalp open, forcing sand into the wound, and dragging his mutilated body around the camp. When they had finished, the Iroquois carved up and ate parts of his body.
I think it would be cute for school kids to reenact this in Indigenous Day pageants.
All this obsession with the brutality of the Aztecs and Mayans. Those people were way down in southern Mexico.
What about the Native Americans who lived in the American colonies like the Iroquois in New York? Here is a sample:
Reverend Father Barthelemy Vimont presented a harrowing example of Iroquois torture that occurred in 1642 in The Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents. In this account he told of an Iroquois war band that captured a small group of Algonquin and himself. Immediately the Iroquois cut off a few fingers from each captive using fish scales. The Iroquois intended to take the captives to their village. On the way one Algonquin woman, realizing what her fate would be, ran into a icy river and drowned herself rather than face the impending torture. Once they had arrived at their captors’ village, the Iroquois made their prisoners sing and dance upon a scaffold. Vimont’s companion, a converted Algonquin named Adrian, wouldn’t sing in the Iroquois’ language, and they slit his fingers lengthwise to cause him intense pain. Next they cleared the scaffold except for one Algonquin named Awessinipin, and they began burning his body with brands. The Iroquois forced an Algonquin woman to take a torch and burn Awessinipin and then killed her when she finally complied. Throughout this entire ordeal the Algonquin man showed no pain. They continued this torture throughout the night, building to a fervor, finally ending at sunrise by cutting his scalp open, forcing sand into the wound, and dragging his mutilated body around the camp. When they had finished, the Iroquois carved up and ate parts of his body.
I think it would be cute for school kids to reenact this in Indigenous Day pageants.
I recently read Stephen Crane's Undaunted Courage about Lewis and Clark.
Some of the stories of the first Indians they met were entertaining. The first winter they stayed with a tribe whose name escapes me right now. The beliefs of this tribe included the idea that if a man had sex with a woman and then another man had sex with the same woman, the second man would pick up characteristics of the first man by having shared the vagina. Therefore, young men would offer their spouses to old, accomplished warriors, dancing before them in a ceremony and begging them to please have sex with their wife, who they would parade naked before the old man.
Well. Clark brought with him York, an African slave who was very tall and strong. York was a popular fellow that winter. All the men wanted this man of strength to have sex with their women to the point where the Indian would guard his tipi door while York was porking his wife so that no other man would come along and lure him away to have sex with his wife instead.
There's a class play. I think that will have to be high school level rather than elementary, no?
I recently read Stephen Crane's Undaunted Courage about Lewis and Clark.
Some of the stories of the first Indians they met were entertaining. The first winter they stayed with a tribe whose name escapes me right now. The beliefs of this tribe included the idea that if a man had sex with a woman and then another man had sex with the same woman, the second man would pick up characteristics of the first man by having shared the vagina. Therefore, young men would offer their spouses to old, accomplished warriors, dancing before them in a ceremony and begging them to please have sex with their wife, who they would parade naked before the old man.
Well. Clark brought with him York, an African slave who was very tall and strong. York was a popular fellow that winter. All the men wanted this man of strength to have sex with their women to the point where the Indian would guard his tipi door while York was porking his wife so that no other man would come along and lure him away to have sex with his wife instead.
There's a class play. I think that will have to be high school level rather than elementary, no?
No more or less believable than worshiping a man that supposedly died for your sins over 2000 years ago. Or the practice of metaphorically taking part in a cannibalistic ritual of said man.
Sorry, but I am in favor of abolishing St. Patrick's Day, Cinco de Mayo, and Columbus Day celebrations/holidays in favor of one "Celebrate Your Culture and Individuality" Day.
Of course, I know that the liquor stores would hate that!
Last edited by katharsis; 10-12-2016 at 02:43 PM..
^I don't know. The biggest Columbus Day parade is in NYC, hardly a bastion of an Amerindian community and a place where the relations between the original inhabitants and the Dutch settlers were fairly good 400 years ago.
As a matter of fact, if you read Russell Shorto's The Island at the Center of the World, he makes the case that the Dutch colony took many of their ideas about government from the local tribes, and then passed those concepts on to the later Constitution--things like checks and balances.
I don't think a bunch of cops and bands marching up Fifth Avenue is perceived as a slap to the indigenous peoples the way the Orange Parades were in Belfast.
First and foremost, in addition to the attitude that Columbus and his crew had of superiority and the need to hide their crueler deeds behind a religious front, the fact that they carried smallpox and the Indians had no immunity did far more damage to the indigenous population than anything else. Read 1491, about the numbers of people who were here before Columbus.
Secondly, all of us writing on this forum, with the exception of a very small minority who might be Indian, are here because Columbus opened the door to our ancestors moving here and building a civilization. We can't very well all sit here and say what a terrible guy he was when we are directly benefiting from his actions these many centuries later.
Indigenous people have the right to mourn the loss of their people and culture. However, European exploration was happening, and sooner or later somebody, if not Columbus, was going to come upon this fine continent and all its riches. It was inevitable.
Agreed and, to be fair, the next group of "Indians" that could've come here could've been Japanese instead of Europeans. The difference is many time Japanese people and the Navajo's look the same if talking face features, skin color and so on.
So we should replace a holiday that celebrates a guy who according to the Indigenous[SIZE=3]peop[/SIZE]le killed a lot of indigenous people in a genocide... and replaced their culture with European Culture....
for...
a holiday that celebrates people (Indigenous) who according to HISTORY, lived generation by generation at total war with their neighbors, counted manhood and standing in their tribes, according to their war prowess.
We are supposed to celebrate people who practiced HUMAN SACRIFICE as a replacement to a guy that killed people?
To be clear, the Aztecz and Maya would go to war, capture their enemies, take them back to their temples, drag them to the top, then cut a hole in their chests AND PULL THEIR STILL BEATIN HEART OUT OF THEIR CHESTS!
And we are supposed to CELEBRATE THIS instead of the guy that founded European culture in the new world?
there is a term for people who think like that, and its against the TOS to say it.
A few things:
1) Indigenous people aren't the only ones who say that Columbus killed Indigenous people. Anyone who is honest says that. Everyone who is informed knows this to be true, some just don't think it's that important (but think it's very important when it about Muhammad or other indigenous people... which is a sign of great character...).
2) According to... oh ****... you put history in all caps. How am I supposed to beat you? By the way, what history are you referring to? It's true that Native tribes were often at war. Alliances would form and break. Sort of like... everywhere else in the world, including Europe (what? But they fear God... how can this be?). Some tribes did, as you say, value manhood based on warrior status. What you leave out (...) is that this is not true of all tribes. The Natives were not one single group. Also, many other cultures outside of the Americas have manhood and warrior status on the same level. Ever heard of Sparta? Or Rome, honestly. Rome valued soldiers as being among the best men. There were other ways to prove manhood in Rome, but this was also true of many tribes. But yeah... all caps history, right?
3) Human sacrifice was not widely practiced among the Natives. It was mainly just in Central America. I can't site specific examples, and I doubt you can since much of what you've said has been bull****, but I'm sure there were sporadic happenings of sacrifice that happened in North America too, but it was not a common practice in the slightest. By the way, Europeans would burn witches alive. Tell me, do witches actually exist? I'm not saying the Native gods they were sacrificing to exist, but if neither exist, they're at least equally BS. But let me guess, only one is uncivilized because humility only matter when it's convenient.
4) Columbus did not... found European culture in the new world. What you're describing a) doesn't make any ****ing sense and b) didn't happen. He founded Spanish culture. An Italian sailor helped establish a Spanish colony. In terms of US history, his contributions were... non existent. He never set foot in North America, unless you count the Bahamas as North America, which most say it's in Central America if they don't just refer to it as the Caribbean.
5) I'm curious what the term is, in light of nearly all of what you said turning out to be nonsensical crap.
I'm very glad Columbus came to USA, because someone worse like a Caliph could have come here, and this country would be just another hell-hole like the 50+ Muslim countries.
Don't worry, black people aren't far behind Natives.
According to this Harvard study, reservation indians suffer a much greater poverty rate than non-reservation Indians.
And yes, I am aware their culture is still around, at least in some areas. No, I don't think the fact that they live with modern technology means they aren't authentically involved in their culture. That said, many places have suffered severe loss of culture, often times intentional. Native religion being replaced with Christianity, native language replaced with English... things like this. Many customs have been forgotten. While I don't regularly describe it as such, I know I've described the cultural genocide as being an attempted cultural genocide. I guess that's technically more honest, though I feel that, for some, this softens it. I'd point out the Hitler's holocaust was also technically only an attempt. Ethnic Jews are alive and well too; yet few seem willing to make excuses for Hitler.
Here in the U.S. today everyone is free to practice any religions, cultures and language that they want to so I still don't see what the fuss is all about in regards to the past.
All this obsession with the brutality of the Aztecs and Mayans. Those people were way down in southern Mexico.
What about the Native Americans who lived in the American colonies like the Iroquois in New York? Here is a sample:
Reverend Father Barthelemy Vimont presented a harrowing example of Iroquois torture that occurred in 1642 in The Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents. In this account he told of an Iroquois war band that captured a small group of Algonquin and himself. Immediately the Iroquois cut off a few fingers from each captive using fish scales. The Iroquois intended to take the captives to their village. On the way one Algonquin woman, realizing what her fate would be, ran into a icy river and drowned herself rather than face the impending torture. Once they had arrived at their captors’ village, the Iroquois made their prisoners sing and dance upon a scaffold. Vimont’s companion, a converted Algonquin named Adrian, wouldn’t sing in the Iroquois’ language, and they slit his fingers lengthwise to cause him intense pain. Next they cleared the scaffold except for one Algonquin named Awessinipin, and they began burning his body with brands. The Iroquois forced an Algonquin woman to take a torch and burn Awessinipin and then killed her when she finally complied. Throughout this entire ordeal the Algonquin man showed no pain. They continued this torture throughout the night, building to a fervor, finally ending at sunrise by cutting his scalp open, forcing sand into the wound, and dragging his mutilated body around the camp. When they had finished, the Iroquois carved up and ate parts of his body.
I think it would be cute for school kids to reenact this in Indigenous Day pageants.
It's almost too easy, but would you like some Columbus day play ideas?
How about they bring the high schoolers to the elementary school, and have the seniors rape the kindergarten students? Or when Columbus establishes the great colony in the America's, include in the play the part where the Spanish government had him removed from governorship for being a tyrant, torturing and mutilating people for relative minor crimes, sometimes not even for a crime? How ****ing dandy would that be? Showing the civilized Europeans teaching the evil Natives how to do things right... which apparently is doing much of the same things, but saying something about Jesus or some bull**** while doing it.
Here in the U.S. today everyone is free to practice any religions, cultures and language that they want to so I still don't see what the fuss is all about in regards to the past.
Ok, so, the fuss is still about poverty. I'm glad that in the face of being given numbers proving me right and by default, you wrong, you ignored it completely and just said something unrelated. Which, by the way, is easier said than done. Many of those languages were literally lost. As in, the last people speaking it died. This is also true of religious traditions and other aspects of culture. But yeah, the ol' "this is a free country" deflection. A classic.
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