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I mean, really, there's no reason for us as a country to give a damn about Columbus. He was an Italian explorer, funded by the Spanish monarch, who landed in the Caribbean. He didn't set foot anywhere in the continental United States. While some say he discovered America, that actually isn't true. Viking were in North American long before Columbus. There's also possible evidence that Chinese people showed up before Columbus. And honestly, even if we accepted the elementary school level understanding of Columbus that most people have as being factual, it's honestly idiotic to think that had his expedition failed, another would have happened. Big picture, Columbus isn't all that essential. He managed to sail the Atlantic, which to his credit was a ***** to do, but many others did as well and the America absolutely still would have been colonized if Columbus' expedition had failed.
Also, few people know this, the actual reason we celebrate Columbus day has nothing to do with his "discovery." At the time when Italian Americans were considered second class citizens, they wanted something that would validate them as important to American culture. So they pushed for Columbus day, since he was among the earliest European explorers leading up to the age of colonization. And he was Italian. That's why. We actually celebrate Columbus day because many in America were racist toward Italians. Surprise!
Ultimately, I could give a damn if Columbus day is replaced. No one actually celebrates it. It's a day where elementary students sing songs about revisionist history and that's pretty much it. Retailers have sales. And it's not like Indigenous day would actually do anything about the horrendous problems of poverty that Native Americans face that we never talk about because doing so requires us to bring our Nazi level ****ed up-ness of our historical treatment of the native population. It makes us uncomfortable, so we just pretend they aren't living in abysmal conditions. Holiday celebrating them or not, that's the case and I'd much rather spend time and energy addressing that over if they have enough holidays.
I know you think this is a clever point, but it's not. I won't presume to know you're race, but let's just assume you're a white America; do you view yourself as European because that's where you "came from?" Technically, the first humans evolved in Africa. Are we all African because that's where we "came from."
When dealing with culture, traditional heiritage is, after a certain amount of time, irrelevant. Yes, Native Americans as a population are genetically similar to the people of modern day Siberia. Are they Siberian? Not only have Native American populations been in the Americas for thousands of years, culturally, they are distinct from their genetic ancestors. This is how we identify ethnicity and culture and race. Ultimately, I view race as being somewhat trivial, but identify ethnicity and culture may have some value for one's personal identity. But regardless, saying Native Americans are actually Asian, not only is technically meaningless in this discussion, it's also misinformed. You have a child like understanding of culture and ethnicity. Which is more deserving of a headsmack than you're silly little Breitbart quote that is apparently supposed to make us think Native Americans don't deserve recognition in American culture and history.
No one was native or indigenous to this country/continent. All of our ancestors migrated here from somewhere else. Everyone born here is a native. I don't care about Columbus Day either, if we celebrate it or not or the reasons behind it either.
In my neck of the woods the Indians are doing pretty well with their casinos. As for the others we have just as many poor blacks, whites, etc. as they do. I don't identify myself by my ancestry. I am an American, period. Do I practice a certain culture and language? Yes, I do. It's the American identifying culture and our language is English. I don't practice the culture and language of my European ancestors. We all deserve recognition as Americans.
The Indians got defeated and; IF the "white" man really wanted to murder all of the AI's in cold blood, they could've done that. Many tribes did that same thing to the defeated tribes but, that nasty history's hidden away.
Indeed that history is hidden away. History is often oversimplified and made to be idealistic so stupid people can grasp it. Let's be real; that is why history is taught the way it is. And when I say that, I am referring to high school since few people have any extensive history education outside of high school. And in that realm, and even outside it much of the time, history is made very simple.
As an example, it's common to talk about the Native American genocide as being "America did this" or "white people did this." But what about the white Americans who opposed it? There were many. As Andrew Jackson announced his planned genocide (it was a cultural genocide; be definition; you're welcome to argue that, but it's an uphill battle, I assure you), many white American opposed it. We have documented letters by American citizens, writing to the government to say that the plan to forcefully remove Natives from their land that was legally theirs according to contract law was morally unjustifiable. But we don't talk about that. It's simplified.
This absolutely effects the other side of the debate as well. The perception of who the Natives were is nearly universally wrong. Most people think feathers and moccasins and nomad hippies, but that's not true. Many were not nomadic. There were many different cultural expressions of clothing. And there was warfare among native Americans. They were humans after all. If a foreign tribe started hunting in their forest for example, they'd fight them to keep their source of food theirs. War is, at tines, necessarily. It's a necessary evil.
But here's a little bit of history that is not widely known. There was a supreme court case questioning if the removal of lands and contract manipulation that was done to the Native Americans was justifiable. The supreme court determined that it was based on property rights. They went back to John Locke for this. As all informed Americans know, John Locke identified property rights as being natural rights that all humans had, which is why the founders of this country expressed similar sentiment. John Locke was really their inspiration. And Locke helpfully explained how one acquires property. You put your labor into the land. And the Supreme Courts decision that the land grab was justifiable because natives were nomadic and did not put labor into the land, so they did not have property rights.
But wait. Not all tribes were nomadic. Most were agricultural, at least to some extent. Which means... the land grab couldn't have been justified because the natives were fulfilling the requirements for property rights. So indeed, history is often oversimplified, usually for some political motives. And I'm sure you fully understand that this does not just apply to the evil social justice warriors. It applies to what you're arguing as well. And being a humble, intelligent, and decent person, I'm sure you agree with that. Or you have a pretty damn compelling argument as to why I'm wrong. Either way, I sincerely look forward to your response.
No one was native or indigenous to this country/continent. All of our ancestors migrated here from somewhere else. Everyone born here is a native. I don't care about Columbus Day either, if we celebrate it or not or the reasons behind it either.
In my neck of the woods the Indians are doing pretty well with their casinos. As for the others we have just as many poor blacks, whites, etc. as they do. I don't identify myself by my ancestry. I am an American, period. Do I practice a certain culture and language? Yes, I do. It's the American identifying culture and our language is English. I don't practice the culture and language of my European ancestors. We all deserve recognition as Americans.
Agreed and HOW!
I'm of Irish family but; I'm def an "American" if talking ethnicity.
No, they didn't. Ever hear of Caucasians in Africa?
You're either trolling or scientifically illiterate.
Modern humans (homo sapiens) first evolved some 200,000 years ago in Africa, somewhere around what is modern day Ethiopia I believe. They then migrated outwards. The difference in skin pigment is just the result of evolution based on the amount of sunlight that they were exposed to. People that were nearer to the equator did better with darker skin while those up north needed pale skin to absorb a proper amount of sunlight for their health. These are scientific realities.
Now, perhaps you don't accept evolution as being a viable scientific theory. In which case I apologize for using words with more than three syllables.
Indeed that history is hidden away. History is often oversimplified and made to be idealistic so stupid people can grasp it. Let's be real; that is why history is taught the way it is. And when I say that, I am referring to high school since few people have any extensive history education outside of high school. And in that realm, and even outside it much of the time, history is made very simple.
As an example, it's common to talk about the Native American genocide as being "America did this" or "white people did this." But what about the white Americans who opposed it? There were many. As Andrew Jackson announced his planned genocide (it was a cultural genocide; be definition; you're welcome to argue that, but it's an uphill battle, I assure you), many white American opposed it. We have documented letters by American citizens, writing to the government to say that the plan to forcefully remove Natives from their land that was legally theirs according to contract law was morally unjustifiable. But we don't talk about that. It's simplified.
This absolutely effects the other side of the debate as well. The perception of who the Natives were is nearly universally wrong. Most people think feathers and moccasins and nomad hippies, but that's not true. Many were not nomadic. There were many different cultural expressions of clothing. And there was warfare among native Americans. They were humans after all. If a foreign tribe started hunting in their forest for example, they'd fight them to keep their source of food theirs. War is, at tines, necessarily. It's a necessary evil.
But here's a little bit of history that is not widely known. There was a supreme court case questioning if the removal of lands and contract manipulation that was done to the Native Americans was justifiable. The supreme court determined that it was based on property rights. They went back to John Locke for this. As all informed Americans know, John Locke identified property rights as being natural rights that all humans had, which is why the founders of this country expressed similar sentiment. John Locke was really their inspiration. And Locke helpfully explained how one acquires property. You put your labor into the land. And the Supreme Courts decision that the land grab was justifiable because natives were nomadic and did not put labor into the land, so they did not have property rights.
But wait. Not all tribes were nomadic. Most were agricultural, at least to some extent. Which means... the land grab couldn't have been justified because the natives were fulfilling the requirements for property rights. So indeed, history is often oversimplified, usually for some political motives. And I'm sure you fully understand that this does not just apply to the evil social justice warriors. It applies to what you're arguing as well. And being a humble, intelligent, and decent person, I'm sure you agree with that. Or you have a pretty damn compelling argument as to why I'm wrong. Either way, I sincerely look forward to your response.
That doesn't mean a thing in 2016. I don't have any "white" guilt. Period.
The Indians lost; it is what it is. Cause if we're gonna go there; the Aztecs were so HATED by other tribes in what's now Mexico they sided with Cortez and his soldiers, IF American Indians had real "solidarity", all of the tribes would've joined forces.
The AI's kept later invaders OUT for a long time but; when the Europeans had gunpowder AND ships to bring large numbers of soldiers here, the Indians were pretty much finished. It is what it is.
No one was native or indigenous to this country/continent. All of our ancestors migrated here from somewhere else. Everyone born here is a native. I don't care about Columbus Day either, if we celebrate it or not or the reasons behind it either.
In my neck of the woods the Indians are doing pretty well with their casinos. As for the others we have just as many poor blacks, whites, etc. as they do. I don't identify myself by my ancestry. I am an American, period. Do I practice a certain culture and language? Yes, I do. It's the American identifying culture and our language is English. I don't practice the culture and language of my European ancestors. We all deserve recognition as Americans.
...
Native American is an ethnic term. It's synonymous with American Indian, Indigenous, and a few other possibilities. In Canada, First Nation is sometimes used. Regardless, Native American does not, in the context I was using it, mean native to America. It's a reference to the people that had been a cultural majority in what in entire Western Hemisphere for several thousand years prior to European colonization. You are a native American, in the sense that you were born in America. That is entirely distinct from being a Native American as a cultural identifier. I also sincerely doubt this is actually news to you; you just thought you were being clever.
That doesn't mean a thing in 2016. I don't have any "white" guilt. Period.
The Indians lost; it is what it is. Cause if we're gonna go there; the Aztecs were so HATED by other tribes in what's now Mexico they sided with Cortez and his soldiers, IF American Indians had real "solidarity", all of the tribes would've joined forces.
The AI's kept later invaders OUT for a long time but; when the Europeans had gunpowder AND ships to bring large numbers of soldiers here, the Indians were pretty much finished. It is what it is.
A supreme Court case based on a hypocritical line of reasoning doesn't matter in 2016? I better not find any posts from you arguing that a supreme court cases from the past needs to be overturned now because that would make you a hypocrite. And no one likes hypocrites. So you better be perfectly satisfied with Obamacare, Abortion, the 14th amendment, gay marriage, and citizens united because those can't matter in 2016. They were in the past.
I also missed where I said Native Americans had solidarity. Because they don't. They still technically don't. There's a certain level of solidarity as there's a shared experience by many, but most tribes want to be known as their tribe. As example, the Sioux indians would actually like less solidarity. This is because there is no such thing as a Sioux Indian. It's made up. Sioux is an identifying term, most likley made by the French, that lumps 7 distinct tribes together. Within those 7, there are several sub groups, each with a distinct cultural language and different customs. The Lakota, which is often used interchangeable with Sioux, Dakota, and Nokota, would actually like to be recognized as distinct from the Sioux. Their solidarity isn't even their idea.
And gun powder and ships is actually not why European were so successful. Most early expeditions were entirely non-violent, and one big reason is that the European explorers were fully aware that if they engaged in combat, they'd lose. Badly. Most of the time, they were vastly outnumbered. 200 men with guns were not going to successfully defeat 700 natives with arrows. Arrows are honestly plenty efficient. Guns have range and are somewhat easier to use, but arrows are still highly capable killing machines for that time. Disease is the main reason Europeans were successful. Europe back in the day was a cesspool of disease. The Native population did not have an immunity built up, so their populations were primarily decimated by disease. Once the populations were diminished, this made open warfare a more viable option for the Europeans.
Which replacing Columbus Day does not. The conflict with various American Indian tribes was fundamentally a conflict of territory with atrocities on both sides. Anyone who wants to truly stand with Amerindians should do so by leaving the Americas. Put up or shut up.
There will never be a mass exodus of European descendants from the Americans. The past cannot be undone. Most Native peoples have suffered irreparable harm. It is best not to have this kind of "all or nothing" mentality, however, since there are ways to foster greater respect for the dignity Native Americans.
There will never be a mass exodus of European descendants from the Americans. The past cannot be undone. Most Native peoples have suffered irreparable harm. It is best not to have this kind of "all or nothing" mentality, however, since there are ways to foster greater respect for the dignity Native Americans.
I don't disagree really, but I meant everyone non-Indian claiming they stand with Indians not just European descent, and you make it sound like despite shrinking Indian's territory Americans didn't and don't have respect or any admiration for American Indians. And you want to know a big reason why they do have respect? It's because we don't always hear them complaining and blaming and they wanted to be independent.
Many places and other entities were officially given Indian names in the US out of sentimentality and respect. An Indian team name or mascot is done out of admiration and respect contrary to what liberals claim.
Last edited by mtl1; 10-09-2016 at 02:53 AM..
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