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Per the bolded ---How can you be serious? NAFTA harmed many people who lost out when their jobs left this country. And you say that's okay?
When did I say NAFTA didn't harm anyone? I said that the harm done to the US middle class is outweighed by the improvement in standard of living produced in poorer countries.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
I bet you were one of those who callously told all those factory workers that it was their fault that they are out of work because they didn't go to college or trade school. You then told them to go get training. Many went back to school to learn IT only to have their jobs get outsourced or they were displaced by H1-B visa holders.
I've never said any such thing to factory workers.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
If the TPP passes, it will devastate this country even more. I know---you are smug when it comes to your own job. You think that your job won't get outsourced nor will you be replaced by a visa holder or a legal or illegal immigrant. When it does happen to you, will you gleefully smile and say "It's okay. My job went to someone in another country who is worse off than I am."?
Why are you proposing to know anything about my own personal situation?
Why won't you address the actual philosophy of whether a moderate harm in the US is worse than a major harm in another country? If in fact the TPP made 400,000 Americans lose their jobs, but 400,000 Asians who are dirt poor could suddenly afford to send their kids to school and get basic healthcare, would that be a good thing or a bad thing?
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Charity starts at home. It means we take care of our own first and foremost.
Why? Shouldn't we instead help those who need it most, regardless of which country they live in?
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
BTW, this thread belongs in the P&OC forum.
How is this discussion not relevant to the election? A major issue in the election is globalism, and one of Trump's main slogans has been "America First."
Who said anything about your brothers and sisters? I'm talking about strangers who are 1,000 miles away versus strangers who are 8,000 miles away.
Why should I care more about the plight of a person I've never met if that person lives in Kentucky than if that person lives in Canada or Belize?
Because we share common values and beliefs. We are for the most part cut from the same cloth. If you don't see it that way then I don't know what to tell ya. My experience with muslims is that they tend to have radical beliefs and culture which condemns women's rights and a general lack of empathy for anyone who is not muslims. How many more behedding videos do we need to see to understand their culture and values? For the most part my brothers and sisters (of American heritage) do not share those extreme beliefs and instead mimmick that of my own. I've been thousands of miles from home. I know these people as fellow Americans. Your choice to view your fellow citizens as nothing but strangers from far away is your own choice and a rare one TBH.
Because we share common values and beliefs. We are for the most part cut from the same cloth. If you don't see it that way then I don't know what to tell ya.
1. I don't think America is as homogeneous as you are implying. There are people of all colors and religions in this country.
2. I don't see how sharing those beliefs makes one person's happiness or suffering more or less important than the happiness or suffering of a person who doesn't share those beliefs.
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Originally Posted by ShiverMeTimber
My experience with muslims is that they tend to have radical beliefs and culture which condemns women's rights and a general lack of empathy for anyone who is not muslims. How many more behedding videos do we need to see to understand their culture and values?
Who said anything about Muslims? The percentage of people in the world who practice things like beheadings is absurdly small. It is so small it is inconsequential. But again, many Muslims live in the US, and many Christians (or pick your religion) live in other countries. I'm not sure that there actually is this incredible difference in beliefs about values between Americans and most people in other countries.
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Originally Posted by ShiverMeTimber
For the most part my brothers and sisters (of American heritage) do not share those extreme beliefs and instead mimmick that of my own. I've been thousands of miles from home. I know these people as fellow Americans. Your choice to view your fellow citizens as nothing but strangers from far away is your own choice and a rare one TBH.
You still haven't answered the important question, though: why should the happiness or suffering of a person in America be more important to me than the happiness or suffering of a person in another country? This seems entirely arbitrary. Why not say that hair color is the trait that binds us or that religion is what matters? If similarity of belief is that trait that you say matters, why not advocate that we make these decisions based on religion rather than nationality?
When did I say NAFTA didn't harm anyone? I said that the harm done to the US middle class is outweighed by the improvement in standard of living produced in poorer countries.
I've never said any such thing to factory workers.
Why are you proposing to know anything about my own personal situation?
Why won't you address the actual philosophy of whether a moderate harm in the US is worse than a major harm in another country? If in fact the TPP made 400,000 Americans lose their jobs, but 400,000 Asians who are dirt poor could suddenly afford to send their kids to school and get basic healthcare, would that be a good thing or a bad thing?
Why? Shouldn't we instead help those who need it most, regardless of which country they live in?
How is this discussion not relevant to the election? A major issue in the election is globalism, and one of Trump's main slogans has been "America First."
You didn't say it in actual words. Instead you crowed about how that job in the US that was lost to NAFTA went to someone who was poorer and it was very clear that you were happy about that.
NAFTA and the TPP are not "moderate harms". How can you so callously say such things? Just how do you expect those Americans who lost their jobs to NAFTA and the TPP to pick up the pieces of their lives? Go tell them that it's okay because someone in a poor country now has their jobs. Don't be surprised if their response to you is, to put it politely, rude.
You know what? It's not our job to fix other countries. Yet we give millions, if not billions to other countries to help them have better lives. Yet much of that money goes into the pockets of corrupt dictators. It's about time that those countries push back and make them better places for their citizens.
Charity starts at home. We take care of our own first and foremost.
You didn't answer the question, did you? Would you move several people into your home then feed, clothe, shelter and pay for their medical care, while your own family suffers for it?
Our country needs help right now. We have millions of suffering underemployed and unemployed American citizens. They come first and foremost.
If you feel so guilty about other countries, go join the Peace Corps. Better yet, pick a third world country and go live there.
I can't believe your lack of concern for suffering Americans.
You didn't say it in actual words. Instead you crowed about how that job in the US that was lost to NAFTA went to someone who was poorer and it was very clear that you were happy about that.
NAFTA and the TPP are not "moderate harms". How can you so callously say such things? Just how do you expect those Americans who lost their jobs to NAFTA and the TPP to pick up the pieces of their lives? Go tell them that it's okay because someone in a poor country now has their jobs. Don't be surprised if their response to you is, to put it politely, rude.
Relative to the situations many people in other countries are experiencing, losing a job in America is certainly a moderate harm. They are almost certainly not going to starve to death, they can walk into any emergency room and get medical treatment, and their kids have free public school. That isn't comparable to the alternative faced by many people elsewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
You know what? It's not our job to fix other countries. Yet we give millions, if not billions to other countries to help them have better lives. Yet much of that money goes into the pockets of corrupt dictators. It's about time that those countries push back and make them better places for their citizens.
I'm not advocating direct governmental aid.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Charity starts at home. We take care of our own first and foremost.
Why? You are stating the current practice, but that isn't justification for that practice. Why is the plight of a person in America more important than a worse plight faced by someone elsewhere?
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
You didn't answer the question, did you? Would you move several people into your home then feed, clothe, shelter and pay for their medical care, while your own family suffers for it?
One's own immediate family is significantly different than a stranger across the country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
Our country needs help right now. We have millions of suffering underemployed and unemployed American citizens. They come first and foremost.
Why should they come first? You keep stating facts about the current practice and beliefs of people, but those statements have nothing to do with the question of what our practice should be.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
If you feel so guilty about other countries, go join the Peace Corps. Better yet, pick a third world country and go live there.
I don't think you know what the word "guilty" means. If I am walking by a pool and see a person drowning and shout to the person standing next to the pool that they should save the drowning person, am I feeling "guilty" about the drowning person? That seems like a strange use of the word.
The Peace Corps isn't a very effective way of producing change in the lives of those who are suffering. It is probably much more effective to donate money to good organizations who are working in the right areas.
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Originally Posted by BOS2IAD
This is an issue for the P&OC forum.
Why? How is this not relevant to the current election?
When did I say NAFTA didn't harm anyone? I said that the harm done to the US middle class is outweighed by the improvement in standard of living produced in poorer countries.
I've never said any such thing to factory workers.
Why are you proposing to know anything about my own personal situation?
Why won't you address the actual philosophy of whether a moderate harm in the US is worse than a major harm in another country? If in fact the TPP made 400,000 Americans lose their jobs, but 400,000 Asians who are dirt poor could suddenly afford to send their kids to school and get basic healthcare, would that be a good thing or a bad thing?
Why? Shouldn't we instead help those who need it most, regardless of which country they live in?
How is this discussion not relevant to the election? A major issue in the election is globalism, and one of Trump's main slogans has been "America First."
I really DON'T give a hoot about a bunch of 3rd world countries; I'd MUCH rather see our kind, regardless of "race", taken care of 1st. Period.
I really DON'T give a hoot about a bunch of 3rd world countries; I'd MUCH rather see our kind, regardless of "race", taken care of 1st. Period.
I'm certain many people agree, but my question was why? Why should the plight of a person in Wisconsin be more important to me than the plight of a person in China?
And stop saying "period" at the end of your sentences. It's unnecessary -- I already know you think what you just said is true.
1. I don't think America is as homogeneous as you are implying. There are people of all colors and religions in this country.
2. I don't see how sharing those beliefs makes one person's happiness or suffering more or less important than the happiness or suffering of a person who doesn't share those beliefs.
Who said anything about Muslims? The percentage of people in the world who practice things like beheadings is absurdly small. It is so small it is inconsequential. But again, many Muslims live in the US, and many Christians (or pick your religion) live in other countries. I'm not sure that there actually is this incredible difference in beliefs about values between Americans and most people in other countries.
You still haven't answered the important question, though: why should the happiness or suffering of a person in America be more important to me than the happiness or suffering of a person in another country? This seems entirely arbitrary. Why not say that hair color is the trait that binds us or that religion is what matters? If similarity of belief is that trait that you say matters, why not advocate that we make these decisions based on religion rather than nationality?
Sounds like you already have your mind made up. You can ignore American culture and national pride, but the majority of us care about Americans first and foremost. It's not about color or religion, it's about culture and values. The fact that you find this hard to understand makes me question your particular background and upbringing. Have you ever eaten a hotdog on the 4th of july or worn a costume at a halloween party? These are just a very small fraction of the culture we all share. You can care about whoever you want. I choose to care about people more similar to myself than I do foreign nationals.
I really DON'T give a hoot about a bunch of 3rd world countries; I'd MUCH rather see our kind, regardless of "race", taken care of 1st. Period.
^^^^I agree 100%!
Our citizens come first and foremost. Period.
The OP obviously was never unemployed in his life. If he were, he would understand just how difficult it is for anyone who isn't independently wealthy to have to go through. Someone like the OP would have to learn the hard way what it is like.
When someone is out of work, they aren't going to sit around thinking how wonderful it is that someone else in another country has taken their job due to NAFTA or TPP. Instead, the unemployed American is going to worry about paying his/her bills. Maybe they worry about losing their home to foreclosure or getting evicted because they can't pay the rent.
ETA: The OP said the following:
Relative to the situations many people in other countries are experiencing, losing a job in America is certainly a moderate harm. They are almost certainly not going to starve to death, they can walk into any emergency room and get medical treatment, and their kids have free public school. That isn't comparable to the alternative faced by many people elsewhere.
-------------------------------
Just how naive are you, OP? They "can walk into any emergency room and get medical treatment"? Are you aware that if they are unemployed, they will still be expected to pay the medical bills? How are they going to do that when they lost their medical coverage when they lost their job? When they lose their home and don't have family to take them in, where will they live? Answer: Many end up living in their cars. And you think this is okay because it's better than being in a third world country? OP, how about you go up to a family who is living in their car and tell them that they are lucky? Then come back here and tell us how you were received by them.
The OP obviously was never unemployed in his life. If he were, he would understand just how difficult it is for anyone who isn't independently wealthy to have to go through. Someone like the OP would have to learn the hard way what it is like.
When someone is out of work, they aren't going to sit around thinking how wonderful it is that someone else in another country has taken their job due to NAFTA or TPP. Instead, the unemployed American is going to worry about paying his/her bills. Maybe they worry about losing their home to foreclosure or getting evicted because they can't pay the rent.
Agreed. Been there, done THAT. ^^^
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