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Old 01-11-2017, 07:58 PM
 
28,576 posts, read 18,602,909 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
From Equality Illinois about hate crimes:
The definition of "identity" from the IL code:

Again, this victim was not intentionally attacked because he was white. However, IMO he was intentionally attacked because he was disabled, which per above is a hate crime. Contrary to what people believe, a "hate crime" is not always about the race of an individual.

Roof intentionally selected black victims - due to that he committed a hate crime based on race.

On your scenario, if you were a disabled black man who got targeted by a group of white thugs who saw you were disabled and decided to victimize you, then you would not have been selected based on race - you like this victim would have been selected based on disability. But if they said "hey - there's a black guy, lets beat him up" then that would be a hate crime because of race.

Per the BJS a person with a disability has a 2.5 greater chance of becoming the victim of a crime and those with a cognitive disability, like this particular victim face the highest risk of victimization, usually assault or rape.
I know the laws, but you miss my point.

The utterance of racial epithets in itself has been asserted as ipso facto evidence of hate crime in the past committed by whites and straights despite any other circumstances in previous cases...but you argue it away here for the sake of black kids.

You have rationalized for yourself that this Chicago incident was not a hate crime. A lawyer in court can argue differently.

Sauce good enough for the goose is sauce good enough for the gander.

Last edited by Ralph_Kirk; 01-11-2017 at 09:18 PM..

 
Old 01-11-2017, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Southwest Louisiana
3,087 posts, read 3,204,980 times
Reputation: 915
Hate crimes aren't solely based on race. They may be based on sex, disability, orientation, political stance and many other factors.
 
Old 01-12-2017, 06:47 AM
 
Location: USA
13,255 posts, read 12,077,513 times
Reputation: 4228
If we want to talk about instances of physical violence, based solely on race, the numbers are small.


Police Corruption was what sparked the current movement, not racism. Racism was something inserted (not to say it wasn't a factor, but we're unsure) into the situation for special interest.


I think racism is more of an economic factor these days.
 
Old 01-12-2017, 07:04 AM
 
16,212 posts, read 10,753,718 times
Reputation: 8437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
There were some serious riots, but they were actually fairly rare and kicked off by much more serious situations.



Seriously, no, it was nowhere near as pervasive as it is now. It's not for nothing that there are so many more kids doing so much more psychologically worse now than then. The real problem with cyberbullying is that it does not remain in cyberspace, but merely insights real-world bullying to an extent we did not experience with anything like the normalcy of that experience today.

You are talking about "bad people in bad schools" in the past--I'm talking about bullying today by "normal" people in every school. My daughter, for instance, attended one of the top schools in the state--a university laboratory school that admitted students only upon application and panel review. In that school, the jocks performed mock homosexual rapes of smaller boys in the hallways. My daughter was severely sexually harassed by both female teachers and boys.

Crap like that did not happen even in that school in the 70s.

One big difference is that in the past, a school had a limited number of "bullies." A tough school might have a group. My school had exactly three.

They did their bullying alone. Nobody followed them. Bullying was a solitary activity.

These days, "normal" kids get swept up into the bullying, and that's what makes it both different and worse.
Again, I think you are seeing the past as the "good old days." Nothing wrong with that.

I'm probably around the same age as your daughter. I went to a inner city "ghetto" school throughout K-12 and there were a lot of fights, a lot of bullying, a lot of "jumping" a lot of what people today call "flash mobbing" or "wilding" where kids ran into stores and stole stuff and beat up clerks.

From many of the things you describe about yourself, you seem to have lived a relatively decent, sheltered life. I didn't. I grew up with drugs and gangs and addicts all around me, with many teachers who did their best and many others who didnt give an F about their students. I was lucky I was smart and tested into a gifted program so I was protected from the regular school environment where there were fights every single day at school. The "ghetto" I lived in was VERY racially diverse, I still have old classmates as friends IRL and on social media. We were black, white, Asian (primarily Vietnamese, Cambodian, and Laosian refugees), and Latino (primarily Mexican - Chicano/Chicana heritage). All of those demographics went through the same thing. There were a lot of fights between blacks and Mexicans and their gangs in particular. The Asian kids were targeted for beat downs regularly, as were the nerdy kids, of which I was one. Due to growing up with a gang affiliated step family and knowing how to kick a$$ people didn't really mess with me much after they got a beat down by me and then me just telling one of my "cousins" about someone saying something to me and they would enjoy (and many of them enjoy it to this day) going out and beating up kids at my school before school. They were young adults who went out and beat up kids for me just for fun and to make a point to the other kids to leave me and my friends alone.

So I have grown up watching all the things you think were not prevalent. I live in the same neighborhood I lived in 20 years ago again (I like living in the hood). The neighborhood is very soft compared to what it used to be. My dad grew up in this neighborhood in the 60s and 70s (he is in his 60s) and he thinks the kids today are "punks" and softies too compared to when he was a kid in the 60s and 70s. The neighborhood, demographically was similar when he was a kid except there weren't Asians like it was when I was a kid but there were Arabs (Lebanese and Syrians primarily) when he was growing up and everyone was fighting and there was a lot of bullying and drug use.

IMO things change and remain the same in many ways when it comes to violence. People have not changed much at all over the past 40 years and due to the lessening of environmental contaminates that do cause behavioral problems and violent behavior in particular (lead poisoning as a result of leaded gasoline in particular) violence is not as prevalent as it was.

On "cyberbullying" I think from my ghetto upbringing on that perspective, if someone is bullying you and it gets to real life, you need to kick their a$$ and they'll stop. Bullies are a lot of talk but can't walk the walk and they are always the same. I've dealt with people trying to bully me. Like your daughter, I dealt with sexual harrassment in my life (many times actually) and I punched those guys too or had one of my "cousins" kick their a$$ and they didn't mess with me. I am very old school "hood" like my dad says about himself and as is my mom in many ways. Today people are soft and too thinned skin and think everything that has always happened (like bullying) is some epidemic when it is not.

That's the last I'll say on it because, as stated I think you and I come from very different environments. That's one of the reasons why I always say there is no one, single "black community" and we all come from different backgrounds that vary by environment and region. Only thing I think is different between today's youth and the past, and my dad agrees with me, is that "talking back" and being disrespectful to teachers and other authority figures (parents) was not prevalent at all and IMO that is a huge issue but I place the blame on my generation of parents and my parents generation of parents (Gen X and Boomers) for not making this a part of everyday life for their kids. I do for my kids and my parents did do it for me too, even with all the craziness I grew up around, I knew I better not be disrespectful to my teachers or to authority figures or I would get a whupping out of this world. My kids know better too, even though I'm not a "whupper" I think of pretty intense discpline for them and they know better than to be "that kid" with their teachers. Too many parents today and in the past made/make too many excuses for the bad behavior of their children even the whole bullying thing, people want to place some diagnosis on it today versus admitting their kid is an a-hole and needs his/her a$$ beat or to get thrown out of school.
 
Old 01-12-2017, 07:15 AM
 
28,576 posts, read 18,602,909 times
Reputation: 30812
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
Again, I think you are seeing the past as the "good old days." Nothing wrong with that.

I'm probably around the same age as your daughter. I went to a inner city "ghetto" school throughout K-12 and there were a lot of fights, a lot of bullying, a lot of "jumping" a lot of what people today call "flash mobbing" or "wilding" where kids ran into stores and stole stuff and beat up clerks.

From many of the things you describe about yourself, you seem to have lived a relatively decent, sheltered life. I didn't. I grew up with drugs and gangs and addicts all around me, with many teachers who did their best and many others who didnt give an F about their students. I was lucky I was smart and tested into a gifted program so I was protected from the regular school environment where there were fights every single day at school. The "ghetto" I lived in was VERY racially diverse, I still have old classmates as friends IRL and on social media. We were black, white, Asian (primarily Vietnamese, Cambodian, and Laosian refugees), and Latino (primarily Mexican - Chicano/Chicana heritage). All of those demographics went through the same thing. There were a lot of fights between blacks and Mexicans and their gangs in particular. The Asian kids were targeted for beat downs regularly, as were the nerdy kids, of which I was one. Due to growing up with a gang affiliated step family and knowing how to kick a$$ people didn't really mess with me much after they got a beat down by me and then me just telling one of my "cousins" about someone saying something to me and they would enjoy (and many of them enjoy it to this day) going out and beating up kids at my school before school. They were young adults who went out and beat up kids for me just for fun and to make a point to the other kids to leave me and my friends alone.

So I have grown up watching all the things you think were not prevalent.
I think you're missing an important point.

You say: "... I went to a inner city "ghetto" school throughout K-12 and there were a lot of fights, a lot of bullying, a lot of "jumping" a lot of what people today call "flash mobbing" or "wilding" where kids ran into stores and stole stuff and beat up clerks. "

My point is that the level of social brutality you experienced in "an inner city 'ghetto' school" is now the norm in even some of the best schools in the nation.

That's like Miami getting Buffalo-level snow falls. To residents of Buffalo, it's a normal winter, but snow in Miami is an indicator of a big problem.
 
Old 01-12-2017, 07:27 AM
 
16,212 posts, read 10,753,718 times
Reputation: 8437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
I think you're missing an important point.

You say: "... I went to a inner city "ghetto" school throughout K-12 and there were a lot of fights, a lot of bullying, a lot of "jumping" a lot of what people today call "flash mobbing" or "wilding" where kids ran into stores and stole stuff and beat up clerks. "

My point is that the level of social brutality you experienced in "an inner city 'ghetto' school" is now the norm in even some of the best schools in the nation.

That's like Miami getting Buffalo-level snow falls. To residents of Buffalo, it's a normal winter, but snow in Miami is an indicator of a big problem.
I knew people who went to the "good" private schools in our area as well and they had very intense bullying in those schools back in the day. Most what we called "rich kids" were a$$holes. They stole a whole lot. The girls were the "mean girl" types, especially the white girls. I had to beat up a few of them for my younger "cousins" when I was a teenager and they were in middle school getting harrassed and bullied by white girls (who can be very vicious and even in the ghetto school, they were the most cliquey and talked the most stuff back in the day. They didn't mess with me at my school though because they knew I wasn't a "talker"). There have always been rape stories in private schools and sexual harrassment. My mom's extended family is actually pretty well off and a lot of my 2nd cousins went to private school. They didn't have the fights "in" school but they dealt with things outside of school that was similar to what I dealt with in the ghetto.

Also, in the same ghetto schools today, there is not nearly the level of violence as there was in the past. So how can it be "worse" when it is not "worse" in the ghetto? There are less gangs, less jumping, less random violence than it was especially in the 1990s. I remember LOTs of violence in school and in neighborhoods that doesn't happen anymore.
 
Old 01-12-2017, 07:41 AM
 
16,212 posts, read 10,753,718 times
Reputation: 8437
I'll note that I have nephews in a very highly regarded private school right now who I serve in the capacity of as what I joking call an "auntie-mama" because their parents aren't "into" ensuring their kids are getting all the things that these schools provide and one of my nephews in particular is very bright, genius level IQ who also grew up in the hood (still lives in the hood). Some of my cousins went to this same school but grew up in the burbs or one of the good neighborhoods. They talk about school back then (my cousins were in high school at this private school in the 80s) and today and it hasn't changed much at all according to their conversations. My nephew is constantly spoken to about race in particular and told he is not "black enough" by the white guys at his school LOL. My cousins said worse things happened to him at the school and that he was bullied at school and called a "n*gger" often. The school is about 8% black today, back then it was about 2% black. That actually has never happened to my nephew. My cousin was also the victim of what can be considered "micro-aggression" at this school (smacked in the head, pushes in the hall, people knocking his books out of his hand, etc.) , something that doesn't happen to my nephew today. He is mostly just talked about for not being "black enough" and the white guys make a big deal about him not liking some idiotic rapper that they like and they speak to him in "Ebonics" thinking that they are being "cool" and "being black" and when he tells them that's not a part of being black, they want to argue with him.

I have other family members whose kids go to private schools as well that are much better on bullying than what they used to be. Back in the day, people just reacted differently to "bullying" and I highly doubt there are huge brawls in any highly rated private school like there was in my ghetto, hood school and today the schools in the ghetto don't have those problems like they used to have where I live. Kids are less racist today too.

I am astonished by the fact that my son is 14 years old and a high schooler now and he has never seen a "fight" at any school he went to. I saw one on the first day of kindergarten lol! My daughter hasn't either. They both go to magnet public schools.
 
Old 01-12-2017, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Southwest Louisiana
3,087 posts, read 3,204,980 times
Reputation: 915
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
Again, I think you are seeing the past as the "good old days." Nothing wrong with that.

I'm probably around the same age as your daughter. I went to a inner city "ghetto" school throughout K-12 and there were a lot of fights, a lot of bullying, a lot of "jumping" a lot of what people today call "flash mobbing" or "wilding" where kids ran into stores and stole stuff and beat up clerks.

From many of the things you describe about yourself, you seem to have lived a relatively decent, sheltered life. I didn't. I grew up with drugs and gangs and addicts all around me, with many teachers who did their best and many others who didnt give an F about their students. I was lucky I was smart and tested into a gifted program so I was protected from the regular school environment where there were fights every single day at school. The "ghetto" I lived in was VERY racially diverse, I still have old classmates as friends IRL and on social media. We were black, white, Asian (primarily Vietnamese, Cambodian, and Laosian refugees), and Latino (primarily Mexican - Chicano/Chicana heritage). All of those demographics went through the same thing. There were a lot of fights between blacks and Mexicans and their gangs in particular. The Asian kids were targeted for beat downs regularly, as were the nerdy kids, of which I was one. Due to growing up with a gang affiliated step family and knowing how to kick a$$ people didn't really mess with me much after they got a beat down by me and then me just telling one of my "cousins" about someone saying something to me and they would enjoy (and many of them enjoy it to this day) going out and beating up kids at my school before school. They were young adults who went out and beat up kids for me just for fun and to make a point to the other kids to leave me and my friends alone.

So I have grown up watching all the things you think were not prevalent. I live in the same neighborhood I lived in 20 years ago again (I like living in the hood). The neighborhood is very soft compared to what it used to be. My dad grew up in this neighborhood in the 60s and 70s (he is in his 60s) and he thinks the kids today are "punks" and softies too compared to when he was a kid in the 60s and 70s. The neighborhood, demographically was similar when he was a kid except there weren't Asians like it was when I was a kid but there were Arabs (Lebanese and Syrians primarily) when he was growing up and everyone was fighting and there was a lot of bullying and drug use.

IMO things change and remain the same in many ways when it comes to violence. People have not changed much at all over the past 40 years and due to the lessening of environmental contaminates that do cause behavioral problems and violent behavior in particular (lead poisoning as a result of leaded gasoline in particular) violence is not as prevalent as it was.

On "cyberbullying" I think from my ghetto upbringing on that perspective, if someone is bullying you and it gets to real life, you need to kick their a$$ and they'll stop. Bullies are a lot of talk but can't walk the walk and they are always the same. I've dealt with people trying to bully me. Like your daughter, I dealt with sexual harrassment in my life (many times actually) and I punched those guys too or had one of my "cousins" kick their a$$ and they didn't mess with me. I am very old school "hood" like my dad says about himself and as is my mom in many ways. Today people are soft and too thinned skin and think everything that has always happened (like bullying) is some epidemic when it is not.

That's the last I'll say on it because, as stated I think you and I come from very different environments. That's one of the reasons why I always say there is no one, single "black community" and we all come from different backgrounds that vary by environment and region. Only thing I think is different between today's youth and the past, and my dad agrees with me, is that "talking back" and being disrespectful to teachers and other authority figures (parents) was not prevalent at all and IMO that is a huge issue but I place the blame on my generation of parents and my parents generation of parents (Gen X and Boomers) for not making this a part of everyday life for their kids. I do for my kids and my parents did do it for me too, even with all the craziness I grew up around, I knew I better not be disrespectful to my teachers or to authority figures or I would get a whupping out of this world. My kids know better too, even though I'm not a "whupper" I think of pretty intense discpline for them and they know better than to be "that kid" with their teachers. Too many parents today and in the past made/make too many excuses for the bad behavior of their children even the whole bullying thing, people want to place some diagnosis on it today versus admitting their kid is an a-hole and needs his/her a$$ beat or to get thrown out of school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
I think you're missing an important point.

You say: "... I went to a inner city "ghetto" school throughout K-12 and there were a lot of fights, a lot of bullying, a lot of "jumping" a lot of what people today call "flash mobbing" or "wilding" where kids ran into stores and stole stuff and beat up clerks. "

My point is that the level of social brutality you experienced in "an inner city 'ghetto' school" is now the norm in even some of the best schools in the nation.

That's like Miami getting Buffalo-level snow falls. To residents of Buffalo, it's a normal winter, but snow in Miami is an indicator of a big problem.


I'm obviously much younger than the both of you (age 29) and did not grow up with what either of you have witnessed, that said, I do think that depending on where you grew up as a child, the riots, the drugs, etc may not have been as bad. Different cities have differently safety/danger levels. Also even within the same city, the safety level of different communities may vary.

Last edited by pandorafan5687; 01-12-2017 at 08:40 AM..
 
Old 01-12-2017, 07:46 AM
 
Location: East Lansing, MI
28,395 posts, read 16,262,210 times
Reputation: 10467
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
From Equality Illinois about hate crimes:
The definition of "identity" from the IL code:

Again, this victim was not intentionally attacked because he was white. However, IMO he was intentionally attacked because he was disabled, which per above is a hate crime. Contrary to what people believe, a "hate crime" is not always about the race of an individual.

Roof intentionally selected black victims - due to that he committed a hate crime based on race.

On your scenario, if you were a disabled black man who got targeted by a group of white thugs who saw you were disabled and decided to victimize you, then you would not have been selected based on race - you like this victim would have been selected based on disability. But if they said "hey - there's a black guy, lets beat him up" then that would be a hate crime because of race.

Per the BJS a person with a disability has a 2.5 greater chance of becoming the victim of a crime and those with a cognitive disability, like this particular victim face the highest risk of victimization, usually assault or rape.


I'll disagree slightly.


I think this poor young man was selected because he was an easy white target. Both of which fall under "identity" in IL laws, so you're right, it's obviously a hate crime. They made a point to call out his race, repeatedly, in the videos. It played a significant part in his being victimized.
 
Old 01-12-2017, 07:52 AM
 
Location: Maryland
18,630 posts, read 19,349,154 times
Reputation: 6461
Quote:
Originally Posted by pandorafan5687 View Post
Hello!


This thread, I wanted to start mainly to get input from other blacks life myself regarding where they stand regarding the racial climate that we are facing right now. Do you feel discriminated against on a regular basis? Do you feel you do relatively well for the most part in life?


I also want to know, how do you as a black person feel about these black conscious movements, SJWs, and black nationalists/separatists movements? How do you feel about the cultural appropriation issue? BLM?


The reason, I'm asking is because it seems like a lot of people are showing their true colors and in response to that, it seems we have many blacks counteracting to the racism being received. I do feel that the issue needs to be discussed but there are so many online black groups and forms that I just don't relate to. As a black person, I find that many of them are only cool with you when you are agreeing with them full stop. The minute you express a thought that deviates from the mindset of that particular form, blogger, or movement, the name calling (i.e. coon, uncle tom, jigaboo, boot licker) starts.


Now my question to other blacks-Where do you fit in at? Do you discuss racial issues with your friends? Are you met with any disagreements? When you find that one disagrees with you, do you educate them? Refer them to Google? Does the conversation go anywhere at all?
The recent behavior of BLM and black political leadership in general has lead to a backlash which I predicted. In a diverse society movements must be rooted in facts not emotions. You cannot stress police shooting while your communities are shooting galleries and your people commit violent crime 8X the rate of other people. Most reasonable people will simply tune you out or react in hostility towards your movement. BLM doesn't seem to care though, they are all about face time. Best thing about Trump winning is that this will be coming to an end. They'll be reduced to the typical loony left anarchists that shatter glass during WTO meetings.
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