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I admit that I do do that.. however, I HAVE And DO back up all my arguments with FACTS.. I have many threads on here that i have participated and started with links to such facts to back up every argument that I've put forth. I took offense NOT to that portion of the argument.. but that MY argument is not valid because I'm emotional about it.
I agree there are a lot of arrogant people on here, and most of their posts stand, even if they are reported (I have done so).
Quote:
Humanity and compassion should always come before the $$ in my opinion.
I'm not so sure that would be the case with UHI, either. They have their ways of keeping costs down. It is not the utopia its advocates make it seem like.
TM - I think that you would get more people to look into the issue of escalating costs of healthcare if you did not fixate on UHI as the end-all-be-all solution. As I have posted before, the cost of health care is increasing at an alarming rate, and that is not just due to the insurance company's CEO's getting the millions in stock options. Utilization is increasing, and utilization is increasing for expensive procedures at an alarming rate. Are there diseases just being newly diagnosed? Are states mandating certain procedures?Perhaps you could do the research on why that is and post instead solutions to that. Other posters have suggested we put out to bid drug costs. Find out why or why not that would work. What are those procedures that are costing the most, why are there more of it now, and what should be done about them. I have been asked to create projection models of costs incurred to treat diseases and while I have the stats to prove my assumptions, they are by any actuarial methods not sustainable in the long term and have had to downgrade them. And believe it or not, the government employs actuaries in Medicare and the CDC and other government agencies so taking health care away from insurance companies is not going to change the mathematical projections of experience. Focus your energies on exploring OTHER options to reduce the cost of health care and not be on blinders that UHI is the ONLY solution to it. Don't focus on Greatday's making $200k, or minimize his life events or of any other poster's because that is exactly what ad hominem means. Let's get back to the subject of the post and debate that instead of what makes a person state what he states. Find out what in terms of dollars it takes to implement this...not a blue sky estimate of that "it would be affordable". The "it would cover everything if you just paid one premium" is the most fallacious statement in your position for UHI because those of us that had many years in healthcare know that it is just not possible.
Last edited by BagongBuhay; 03-02-2008 at 04:28 PM..
WRONG.. 50% of bankruptcies are medical bills. My hsuband went thruogh a bankruptcy befroe we got married because of his business then and you can't write off IRS taxes!!
You are mistaken TM. I practice in the BK law area. You can discharge 1040 debt through bankruptcy.
You want to keep it that way because YOU can afford it GreatDay..and you dont' care about the rest of us because you think it has nothing to do with you.. but the fact that MOST of America's population IS NOT rich you're fortunately outnumbered..
You are, again, misinformed TM
I care deeply about others. If I did not, I, and my wife, would not be spending as much time, effort and money, trying to help others. So, may I suggest you get off your high horse once and for all?
I do believe however, that I have no OBLIGATION (mandatory) to assist you in paying of your medical bills. And, that is, after all, what you are trying to FORCE me, and others, to do - to help pay YOUR bills.
Why should ANYONE be FORCED to pay the medical costs of another TM? Why do you subscribe to the "It takes a village" concept"?
Can you please give some reason - logical and unemotional reasons?
GreatDay.. I wouldn't brag about not paying into SS or Medicare.. basically it makes you look like an elitist jerk. You may have legally bypassed that.. but that is a legal loophole put in place by rich elitist to get out of it.. meanwhile.. I make not nearly as much as you and I still contribute ... the fact that you keep touting that is just making me ill. .
Well TM, let me tell you, I'm not "bragging" as you suggest. I am merely stating a fact. And, the fact is, I don't believe in Social Security from a personal perspective nor from a financial perspective. I felt, and I have been proven right, that I could invest, privately, the same amount of money that I would have been forced to contribute to SS, and get more in return. Like I said, I was right. AND, who is my first obligation to TM? You? No. It is to my family.
By not contributing to SS, and privately investing the money, I am in a better position to support MY FAMILY far, far better than if I had gotten Social Security. AND, I am not a burden on the American Taxpayer TM. You, and others, are not ever going to pay for my expenses - none - including medical.
I am saving the American taxpayer money TM.
So, if my saving the taxpayers sickens you, so be it.
I care deeply about others. If I did not, I, and my wife, would not be spending as much time, effort and money, trying to help others. So, may I suggest you get off your high horse once and for all?
I do believe however, that I have no OBLIGATION (mandatory) to assist you in paying of your medical bills. And, that is, after all, what you are trying to FORCE me, and others, to do - to help pay YOUR bills.
Why should ANYONE be FORCED to pay the medical costs of another TM? Why do you subscribe to the "It takes a village" concept"?
Can you please give some reason - logical and unemotional reasons?
I've posted all the logical reasons GREATDAY.. in Many posts that you choose to ignore.. there aer facts and figures posted on all them.. Links to studies that have lead many to draw their conclusions.. they may not have been posted on this particular thread..but they are on the many others I've participated with and have even started myself.
As for my "high horse" .. don't think just because you go down to a soup kitchen or whatever excuses your other dismisses .. it doesn't. I subscribe to "it takes a village" because again..I'm not all about me me me.. No one is forcing ME to want to support UHI.. i just realize that it's the compassionate road totake.. Just like I said in another post.. simply because a dictator decided to be "generous" and feed his people bread one day doesn't make or forgive all his other selfish actions. (that's not saying you are a dictator, it's just a comparison). Sorry. .just because you hand out food one day to the poor doesn't excuse the fact that you turn your back on your societal obligations by cheating your way.. albeit it a legal loophole, out of paying SS or Medicaid.
Nothing you say will convince me otherwise. . and your posts along with others tells me that if there was a choice all the rich.. or the "haves" would leave the rest of us hardworkign middle class people to rot if you had the "choice" GreatDay.. oh.. but that would be okay because while we rot you may take some time out to stand at the soup kitchen and give out the "free" food right? Sorry to be so blunt.. but that's how I see it. It's what I get from your posts GreatDay. And we are NOT talking about those same people GreatDay.. those collecting from your "charity" are peopole already getting healthcare they need FOR FREE.. WITHOUT contributing. We're talking about HARD WORKIGN MIDDLE INCOME FAMILIES THAT WORK AND PAY TAXES. You're fine giving your time to the "poor" but your not okay giving something that hte middle class so desperately needs.. Universal health Care!! You have a problem paying a tax that ACTUAL GOES TO HELP THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION THAT ACTUALLY PAYS INTO THE SYSTEM!!
And to the other poster.. this thread IS about UHI and it's possibilities.. it's not about "what other solutions are there instead of UHI!". so I discuss UHI. As for focusing on $200K salary it is relevant. Although he claims to have experience being "without" he seems to have disdain for helping those that can't provide the full amoutn from themselves.. and again..we're not talking free ride here. Poor people get FREE medical.. the rich CAN afford their own.. and by his own testament his insurance is only 2% of his income while mine is 16% and I barely can make it!! All I'm asking for is a FAIR SHOT at the same great medical as someone making oodles of money WITHOUT having to eat rice and beans everyday..
There are many posts I put up here that illustrate where the savigns were and Why it would work.. as well as testaments from those IN the system of a UHI that say exactly why it does work.
I don't expect a Utopia.. but I certainly expect better results than our system now.
I do believe however, that I have no OBLIGATION (mandatory) to assist you in paying of your medical bills. And, that is, after all, what you are trying to FORCE me, and others, to do - to help pay YOUR bills.
Why should ANYONE be FORCED to pay the medical costs of another TM? Why do you subscribe to the "It takes a village" concept"?
GreatDay.. I wouldn't brag about not paying into SS or Medicare.. basically it makes you look like an elitist jerk. You may have legally bypassed that.. but that is a legal loophole put in place by rich elitist to get out of it.. meanwhile.. I make not nearly as much as you and I still contribute ... the fact that you keep touting that is just making me ill. .
Well TM, let me tell you, I'm not "bragging" as you suggest. I am merely stating a fact. And, the fact is, I don't believe in Social Security from a personal perspective nor from a financial perspective. I felt, and I have been proven right, that I could invest, privately, the same amount of money that I would have been forced to contribute to SS, and get more in return. Like I said, I was right. AND, who is my first obligation to TM? You? No. It is to my family.
By not contributing to SS, and privately investing the money, I am in a better position to support MY FAMILY far, far better than if I had gotten Social Security. AND, I am not a burden on the American Taxpayer TM. You, and others, are not ever going to pay for my expenses - none - including medical.
I am saving the American taxpayer money TM.
So, if my saving the taxpayers sickens you, so be it.
yes.. it sickens me greatday. it's me me me.. First ofall.. paying into SS or Medicare would nOT make a dent in your financial life.. Please.. paying into it is not going to force you on a rice and beans diet or to give up your plane and your boat!!
You just want more money for yourself GreatDay and to hell with everyone else and society..
What happens someday GreatDay if you loose all that money.. and then you NEED SS or Medicaid.. because it CAN happen. .. but you didn't pay a dime into it.. it happens to people all the time.. Bet you won't think that Medicaid or SS is such a bad idea after all. .. would you.. but then "it can't happen to me" right! Lots of people thought "it can't happen to me" find themselves in a whole heap of trouble..
TM - I think that you would get more people to look into the issue of escalating costs of healthcare if you did not fixate on UHI as the end-all-be-all solution. As I have posted before, the cost of health care is increasing at an alarming rate, and that is not just due to the insurance company's CEO's getting the millions in stock options. Utilization is increasing, and utilization is increasing for expensive procedures at an alarming rate. Are there diseases just being newly diagnosed? Are states mandating certain procedures?Perhaps you could do the research on why that is and post instead solutions to that. Other posters have suggested we put out to bid drug costs. Find out why or why not that would work. What are those procedures that are costing the most, why are there more of it now, and what should be done about them. I have been asked to create projection models of costs incurred to treat diseases and while I have the stats to prove my assumptions, they are by any actuarial methods not sustainable in the long term and have had to downgrade them. And believe it or not, the government employs actuaries in Medicare and the CDC and other government agencies so taking health care away from insurance companies is not going to change the mathematical projections of experience. Focus your energies on exploring OTHER options to reduce the cost of health care and not be on blinders that UHI is the ONLY solution to it. Don't focus on Greatday's making $200k, or minimize his life events or of any other poster's because that is exactly what ad hominem means. Let's get back to the subject of the post and debate that instead of what makes a person state what he states. Find out what in terms of dollars it takes to implement this...not a blue sky estimate of that "it would be affordable". The "it would cover everything if you just paid one premium" is the most fallacious statement in your position for UHI because those of us that had many years in healthcare know that it is just not possible.
I have been saying this over and over and over and over again every time a new post about socialized medicine pops up. The only effect the current candidates do is raise the cost of health care instead of decreasing it and it makes everyone taxes go up to support that system. It doesn't stop the cost of health care... that MRI will still cost the same, drugs will cost MORE not less, etc etc. You want cheaper health care? Get rid of the patent system and protection of drugs with the patent system. The problem with that is that there is no incentive for drug companies to develop better drugs or companies to make better medical devices. You can't have everything people and you can't have it all cheap either...
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