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Let's keep this discussion purely on policies and not start a flame war. This will be slightly long.
I'm a liberal and given most of the ideas Bernie Sanders put on the table during his campaign, I'm technically a progressive as I agree with most of his proposals. I've always had trouble understanding the other side and wanted to get some thoughts to better understand.
So let's start with what it means to be progressive: Progressivism is a philosophy based on the Idea of Progress, which asserts that advancement in science, technology, economic development, and social organization are vital to improve the human condition.
In hindsight, it makes complete sense, the more we know about something, the more we can put it to use to improve everyone's lives by creating opportunity which everyone has a fair shot at. Science is the key engine of this process and it bugs me that we don't invest more into scientific research and development. To start off I'll list some major policy areas that Bernie Sanders campaign was built upon and put in why I think it makes total sense.
Taxes: Tax the rich more and lower everyone else's taxes
Bernie's platform on taxes was essentially to reduce income inequality, raising taxes on the rich and reducing taxes on the middle class and poor as the richest of the richest earn their income via capital gains, and the rest earn their income via working. He gave some troubling statistics where the top 1% owns something like 30% of the wealth, and top 5% owns more than 60% of the wealth. The logic was, if it was true that if a rich person had a ton of capital, they would create a ton of jobs from the top down. Given various statistics among many others with factual evidence, this is not the case. A good one that Bernie pointed out is that even though America works longer hours and becomes more productive, incomes haven't been keeping up with the pace of productivity. Economists have long argued that to create a net increase in aggregate demand, most of the wealth needs to be in the middle class, the actual definition of what is middle class remains to be debated but a reasonable one is to assume 70% of the population, where the 15% is at the lower and top end of the scale. To fix this Bernie proposed a set of policies to help people of the middle and lower classes move up in the income ladder (Namely education, healthcare and equality).
Education: Free education at public institutions
A huge part of Bernie's platform was to make every single public college and university free for all students. The reason behind it is, there's a correlation between one's income and their education level. Generally, the higher one's education is, the higher their income is. To help the poor and middle class, making education free allows anyone to study and increases the pool of students who otherwise wouldn't be able to attend a school or would have to take on tons of debt. Once these students graduate, they will get a better job, be more competitive in the marketplace and also pay higher taxes compared to someone at the bottom of the income ladder. It's obviously worth the investment to pay for someone's education, then have the rest of their life to generate more taxes from their higher earnings.
Healthcare: Universal Healthcare
Another huge part of his platform was the complete overhaul of the healthcare system and make universal healthcare the defacto system. His argument was very simple, Americans pay more in healthcare per capita than every single other major industrialized country on earth. It makes sense to have a universal healthcare system because, since people do not have the same incomes, it hurts the people at the lower income levels than it does those at the higher income levels when they see the doctor and receive care. It's gotten so bad that people cannot even afford the insurance to even have at least some kind of protection.
Equality: Equality of pay for all Americans, civil rights, social justice regardless of background, sexual orientation, gender, religious faith.
Equality of pay for women, as statistics still show that women still get paid less than men for the same jobs. Reasoning behind this is, equality provides everyone an opportunity to make something for themselves and go up in the economic ladder. Discrimination of opportunities doesn't need factual evidence to back it up, it's inherently fair to not discriminate and a level playing field is pretty obvious for fairness to help the lower and middle classes improve themselves.
Like, dude lol right on I want equal justice and social justice. Like and let the rich pay more tax so we don't have too. lol.
l mean if like women pay and I like women too lol. it's progress and progress is the forward lol. I mean fairness is giving some wealth to people lol. Bernie said so.
I can try bringing a different perspective in and hopefully it helps. I am a first generation Afghan-American (not practicing Muslim but I was raised in a Muslim household). I grew up in poverty and have worked my way up to middle class (I'm in my mid 20s). Born and raised in California. I swing more conservative and here's why:
I don't think there is anything wrong with progressives. I'm actually okay with you being whatever you want so long as you don't force it upon me. That's usually where it crosses the line. I also am more than welcoming of advancement in technology and science but I also hope that does not mean we can't enjoy "older things".
When it comes to taxes, I absolutely hate the progressive tax system. I hate high taxes. The reason why is that as I've moved up in my career through hard work, more of my money has been taken away and the benefits that this money goes to does not benefit me all that much. Living and growing up poor and working at a managed health care plan, I have known and currently know so many people that abuse the welfare system (welfare, healthcare, unemployment, etc). that it really makes me sick. When my parents came to the US about 30 years ago, their goal was to provide their children this nation of opportunities to go and become something great (which is the same for most parents). However, a lot (and so much more than people want to believe) of poor people intentionally stay poor to use the welfare system. I personally don't think that taxing me higher and have my money go towards those people is right. Of course, there are those who genuinely need it but you can't differentiate the two. When I think of America, I think of coming here with nothing and through hard work becoming successful. Not to come here, get on the welfare system, hope your children become successful but if they don't, it's fine because there's the welfare system. On top of that, all of my hard work has been because I'll have more money to give myself and family a better life. But when I see more and more of my money be taken away through taxes, the incentive of working hard to get promoted diminishes a lot. I hear a lot of people say that it's unfair that a lot of kids are born into poor, bad neighborhoods. I just don't see that as an excuse because I've been there. If you tax the poor, people argue that you're putting an unfair burden on them. If you tax the rich, however, you're discriminating against the rich.
When it comes to education, I don't think college should be free. It's a privilege, not a right. In addition, giving higher education to more people will not make them more competitive, it will decrease the value of education for everyone. That's what happened to me when I graduated (and to a lot of others). Maybe decades ago when few people could afford higher education (or they saved and went), supply of those with a BA was less (and even less for MS, PhD, etc), so when an employer came across one who had an education, it stood out. When everyone has a BA/BS, employers just shrug their shoulders because it really is so what, everybody else has one. I think of it as supply and demand.
I have no problem with universal healthcare as long as people also have the choice of opting for private insurance (for whatever reason, that's their business) and it doesn't increase taxes.
I have no problem with equality. I haven't met a conservative who has a problem with it either. I think it becomes a problem when either side tries to shove their ideologies in someone else's life. A gay couple shouldn't shove their marriage certificate down someone's throat who opposes gay marriage and religious people who are against gay marriage shouldn't shove their bible down the gay's throat. Both sides should have the privacy and independence to do what they want and live where they feel comfortable. Being civil is key. I do not promote discrimination. I promote living peacefully without feeling scared that you can't believe what you want to believe.
I can try bringing a different perspective in and hopefully it helps. I am a first generation Afghan-American (not practicing Muslim but I was raised in a Muslim household). I grew up in poverty and have worked my way up to middle class (I'm in my mid 20s). Born and raised in California. I swing more conservative and here's why:
I don't think there is anything wrong with progressives. I'm actually okay with you being whatever you want so long as you don't force it upon me. That's usually where it crosses the line. I also am more than welcoming of advancement in technology and science but I also hope that does not mean we can't enjoy "older things".
When it comes to taxes, I absolutely hate the progressive tax system. I hate high taxes. The reason why is that as I've moved up in my career through hard work, more of my money has been taken away and the benefits that this money goes to does not benefit me all that much. Living and growing up poor and working at a managed health care plan, I have known and currently know so many people that abuse the welfare system (welfare, healthcare, unemployment, etc). that it really makes me sick. When my parents came to the US about 30 years ago, their goal was to provide their children this nation of opportunities to go and become something great (which is the same for most parents). However, a lot (and so much more than people want to believe) of poor people intentionally stay poor to use the welfare system. I personally don't think that taxing me higher and have my money go towards those people is right. Of course, there are those who genuinely need it but you can't differentiate the two. When I think of America, I think of coming here with nothing and through hard work becoming successful. Not to come here, get on the welfare system, hope your children become successful but if they don't, it's fine because there's the welfare system. On top of that, all of my hard work has been because I'll have more money to give myself and family a better life. But when I see more and more of my money be taken away through taxes, the incentive of working hard to get promoted diminishes a lot. I hear a lot of people say that it's unfair that a lot of kids are born into poor, bad neighborhoods. I just don't see that as an excuse because I've been there. If you tax the poor, people argue that you're putting an unfair burden on them. If you tax the rich, however, you're discriminating against the rich.
When it comes to education, I don't think college should be free. It's a privilege, not a right. In addition, giving higher education to more people will not make them more competitive, it will decrease the value of education for everyone. That's what happened to me when I graduated (and to a lot of others). Maybe decades ago when few people could afford higher education (or they saved and went), supply of those with a BA was less (and even less for MS, PhD, etc), so when an employer came across one who had an education, it stood out. When everyone has a BA/BS, employers just shrug their shoulders because it really is so what, everybody else has one. I think of it as supply and demand.
I have no problem with universal healthcare as long as people also have the choice of opting for private insurance (for whatever reason, that's their business) and it doesn't increase taxes.
I have no problem with equality. I haven't met a conservative who has a problem with it either. I think it becomes a problem when either side tries to shove their ideologies in someone else's life. A gay couple shouldn't shove their marriage certificate down someone's throat who opposes gay marriage and religious people who are against gay marriage shouldn't shove their bible down the gay's throat. Both sides should have the privacy and independence to do what they want and live where they feel comfortable. Being civil is key. I do not promote discrimination. I promote living peacefully without feeling scared that you can't believe what you want to believe.
Hope this helps!
Great post! I think free college would just be like exending another four to five years on your high school diploma. If everyone gets to go for free, and someone decides to skip college it would be like being a high school dropout, and nothing very special for the kids who continue unless they could get into a highly selective private school.
Let's keep this discussion purely on policies and not start a flame war. This will be slightly long.
I'm a liberal and given most of the ideas Bernie Sanders put on the table during his campaign, I'm technically a progressive as I agree with most of his proposals. I've always had trouble understanding the other side and wanted to get some thoughts to better understand.
So let's start with what it means to be progressive: Progressivism is a philosophy based on the Idea of Progress, which asserts that advancement in science, technology, economic development, and social organization are vital to improve the human condition.
In hindsight, it makes complete sense, the more we know about something, the more we can put it to use to improve everyone's lives by creating opportunity which everyone has a fair shot at. Science is the key engine of this process and it bugs me that we don't invest more into scientific research and development. To start off I'll list some major policy areas that Bernie Sanders campaign was built upon and put in why I think it makes total sense.
Taxes: Tax the rich more and lower everyone else's taxes
Bernie's platform on taxes was essentially to reduce income inequality, raising taxes on the rich and reducing taxes on the middle class and poor as the richest of the richest earn their income via capital gains, and the rest earn their income via working. He gave some troubling statistics where the top 1% owns something like 30% of the wealth, and top 5% owns more than 60% of the wealth. The logic was, if it was true that if a rich person had a ton of capital, they would create a ton of jobs from the top down. Given various statistics among many others with factual evidence, this is not the case. A good one that Bernie pointed out is that even though America works longer hours and becomes more productive, incomes haven't been keeping up with the pace of productivity. Economists have long argued that to create a net increase in aggregate demand, most of the wealth needs to be in the middle class, the actual definition of what is middle class remains to be debated but a reasonable one is to assume 70% of the population, where the 15% is at the lower and top end of the scale. To fix this Bernie proposed a set of policies to help people of the middle and lower classes move up in the income ladder (Namely education, healthcare and equality).
Education: Free education at public institutions
A huge part of Bernie's platform was to make every single public college and university free for all students. The reason behind it is, there's a correlation between one's income and their education level. Generally, the higher one's education is, the higher their income is. To help the poor and middle class, making education free allows anyone to study and increases the pool of students who otherwise wouldn't be able to attend a school or would have to take on tons of debt. Once these students graduate, they will get a better job, be more competitive in the marketplace and also pay higher taxes compared to someone at the bottom of the income ladder. It's obviously worth the investment to pay for someone's education, then have the rest of their life to generate more taxes from their higher earnings.
Healthcare: Universal Healthcare
Another huge part of his platform was the complete overhaul of the healthcare system and make universal healthcare the defacto system. His argument was very simple, Americans pay more in healthcare per capita than every single other major industrialized country on earth. It makes sense to have a universal healthcare system because, since people do not have the same incomes, it hurts the people at the lower income levels than it does those at the higher income levels when they see the doctor and receive care. It's gotten so bad that people cannot even afford the insurance to even have at least some kind of protection.
Equality: Equality of pay for all Americans, civil rights, social justice regardless of background, sexual orientation, gender, religious faith.
Equality of pay for women, as statistics still show that women still get paid less than men for the same jobs. Reasoning behind this is, equality provides everyone an opportunity to make something for themselves and go up in the economic ladder. Discrimination of opportunities doesn't need factual evidence to back it up, it's inherently fair to not discriminate and a level playing field is pretty obvious for fairness to help the lower and middle classes improve themselves.
Agree with the taxes 100%.
Why not prevent employers from discriminating based on education level instead? It would be a simpler solution, and cost less.
Totally agree with the universal healthcare...except for one thing. How do you know that people will be paying less than we are doing now for healthcare after universal healthcare is implemented?
How do you define equal work, though? There are no such thing as two jobs that are completely equal. Come up with a definition of what "equal job" means before you say that people should get equal pay.
Great post! I think free college would just be like exending another four to five years on your high school diploma. If everyone gets to go for free, and someone decides to skip college it would be like being a high school dropout, and nothing very special for the kids who continue unless they could get into a highly selective private school.
Good point. If free college were reduced to being just additional years of high school, you would have a high rate
of non-participation. That would devalue the High School diploma further.
Also that keeps the student living at home 4-years longer. Not a desirable situation for many parents!
Fortunately for America, socialism was soundly rejected last week.
Liberals think with the heart instead of their brain.
Think about 100 people Liberals would rather have 99 convicted killers go free than to have 1 innocent person go to jail. Conservatives hate to see 1 person go to jail for a crime they did not commit but know it's better to see 1 person hurt than the other 99 go about the killing & law breaking that they will do.
It's unfortunate but sometimes in this world people just get the short end of the stick. That's when you have to hope that family & friends can pick that person up. NOT the government which liberals choose to use as a method of fixing problems.
This is why it's very common for minorities in this country to be liberal/democrat. Some minorities have been treated unfairly in the past & the government is the only reason they were able to move forward. But they still remember things like this from the past & can relate many times to current things going.
I've been staying relatively open minded and still looking into those policies for the past year and even today. However, given what I know, it's obvious that what makes sense and is backed up by enough evidence, makes me lean left. Therefore, I can stick that "you'll be damned" label on right?
You can consider this thread, for trying to understand other viewpoints that I may have missed.
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