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How so? Is Carrier getting a taxpayer handout, like GM did under Bush and Obama?
Yes. The state of Indiana is giving Carrier up to $7 million over the next 10 years in return for keeping 1069 jobs there. That works out to $654 per worker per year for the next 10 years.
Yes. The state of Indiana is giving Carrier up to $7 million over the next 10 years in return for keeping 1069 jobs there. That works out to $654 per worker per year for the next 10 years.
And this is in addition to the give-aways they got in 2011 to expand their plant.
I think the confusion derives from the switch from national economics to global economics. The economic war on the USA has been ongoing for some time and we finally have a president that is not blind or paid off. The government must be more involved in global economics in order to be on a more level platform with the other nations.
Hey, since crony capitalism is the American Way, why not have crony capitalism that benefits the American worker for a change? I say it's better than having crony capitalism working exclusively for the Big Banks and Wall Street.
At least Carrier actually produces something of value instead of just making money from high frequency trading algorithms. And if Carrier f*cks up, we may have a lot of sweaty people, but it won't bring down the entire economy.
Oooh... that sounds really interesting. Do you remember the name of what you were watching??
(sorry for wandering off topic... just looking for a link )
Haha I vaguely remember it...I'm pretty sure it was Stefan Molyneux (who I don't completely agree with on everything, but he has some good conversations). I think the video was "why people are irrational".
I've watched a lot of things recently so a couple of those ideas could have been in a separate video...not totally sure, but I'd just search that video.
I agree they gave them an offer Carrier couldn't refuse. Whether that was a threat, or in the way of something else, I don't know. I suspect it was a threat coupled with, 'this is what we're going to do for businesses that stay here once we're in place.'
The bailout had to happen with both the auto industry and the banking industry. Far too many people would have been unemployed if they weren't bailed out. If a Republican had bailed them out, conservatives would have defended it, and the Democrats would have been bitching and moaning. Most people align with their party of choice and all objectivity goes out the window. My ONLY objection with these bailouts, is they should have come with a caveat that there is NO partying, there are NO bonuses paid out to ANYONE for X number of years, and an external auditor would be regularly checking the books to make sure none of that happened. PERIOD. Much of the outrage that came from the bailout of the banks came AFTER it was revealed that they were spending a lot of money on perks for themselves. That's just wrong.
Conservatives want small government, but they've always stuck their noses in businesses to some extent.
And in that regard, Democrats shouldn't complain about tax breaks for businesses because it's those breaks that keep them here. Complaining about businesses getting tax breaks is NOT being business friendly. You can't have it both ways. You either don't give them breaks or you see even more jobs being lost. And that's true at the state level, too, particularly with regard to states like IL and CA where so many businesses have left.
As for voters, like the ones in IN that have lost jobs but keep repeating their voting habits - it happens on both sides because people are too fearful or uneducated to change their mind about their party. So they remain loyal hoping it will be different, and then it's not. Having said that, people on both sides of the aisle have been pro-trade agreements and they haven't cared at all about how it's hurting any of us. So what choices have people really had? None. That's one of the biggest reasons Trump got elected. It really was the only thing some Americans felt they could control.
Last edited by MPowering1; 12-01-2016 at 04:06 PM..
....frankly, neither do they IMO. And this isn't me being at my normally snarky, smartassed best. I'm truly bemused at what's happening.
OK...let's start here: for the last 35 years or so, conservatives have told me time and time again that businesses are in business FIRST AND FOREMOST to make a profit and return cash in wheelbarrows to their stockholders.
Well, isn't that what Carrier was trying to do?
Then I'm told by these same people that government needs to stay out of the way of business...big and small. Less taxes, and less regulation (read: no taxes and no regulations if at all possible). That it's not the role of government to pick winners and losers in the marketplace at all.
I simply can't forget all of the Republican/Conservative hand wringing and outright condemnation of the auto manufacturers bailout. They're STILL killing Obama for that...right or wrong. Tom Sullivan of Fox News Talk was just talking about this fact yesterday, and as a conservative, he's bewildered too!
But let's be real about what happened here. Carrier's parent group MOST DEFINITELY got warned...directly or otherwise that leaving the U.S. would be problematic for them. I'm not prepared to call it a threat per se, but the American business mindset is such that Carrier didn't just change their minds because they're benevolent. If you think that, then you're lying to yourself. That ain't what happened.
The error of their ways was pointed out to them in dress-down fashion, and they got spooked. Can I prove it? No. But use your common sense, remove your ideological myopia, and see this for what it is. Trump-Pence punked somebody out!
Now consider for a minute what would've be been said had Obama done this earlier this year when the move to Mexico was announced. What I'm postulating here requires some intellectual honesty from conservatives. There is NO EFFIN WAY that you would've approved of him doing this....
To begin with, it would've been seen as a cynical ploy in an election year, but let's set that aside. Conservatives would've brought out the ancient arguments about Democrats being bad for business and how typical it is of liberals to put their foot on the neck of a business needing to move in order to save itself by seeking cheaper labor. And the tried and true arguments about manufacturing workers and unions pricing themselves out of the market would've been front and center again.
Deny If you want to, but I know better. And if you're being honest, you know I'm right.
Then there's this (as an addendum to the topic, but off the topic a bit)...
This thing about "white working class voters" is just as confusing.
Since Indiana is in the headlines, I'll use that state as an example. Indiana has been pretty much a rock ribbed conservative state ever since I can remember. If Indiana's residents believed that these are the types of deals that politicians should strike with business, then why in the hell have they voted in pro free trade Republicans (and a few Dems) time and time again when their state has been devastated by manufacturing job losses? I can't wrap my mind around that either.
Mike Pence, Dan Quayle, Dan Coates Dick Lugar, Evan Bayh, etc...not one of them is an economic protectionist even a little bit. When has Mike Pence ever spoken out against companies leaving this country?
Indiana offered Carrier a very nice incentive package to stay earlier this year, and Carrier turned it down flat. So where was the condemnation of their decision earlier this year outside of Trump raising hell about it? I'll tell you...there was no condemnation coming from anywhere in Republican circles...in Indiana or anywhere else.
And Democrats: get your house in order. THIS move by Trump is what our party should've been doing all along. Hell, if the Republicans are gonna tag our party as unfriendly to business no matter how untrue that is (and it's a boldfaced lie...Dems couldn't possibly be any friendlier), then you may as well live up to it and use that reputation in a populist fashion on behalf of workers.
But I digress. Republicans, I don't know who you are anymore. And if you're being honest, you guys don't either. But I know one thing: you don't believe in the stuff you've been saying (about economics) at all. Not even a little bit. And I suspect that this next four years will prove me even more correct.
The Carrier affair is just a small, isolated case for show. It doesn't indicate that anything substantial will continue to be done about offshore jobs. Let's wait until all the products sold by the Trump Empire are manufactured entirely in the U.S., before we start being cheerleaders for his policies. And the OP is right, the Republicans are just milling around in complete confusion and contradiction. But that's understandable, considering the mess that Trump has made of any principles or protocols for civilized political process. And for the same reasons, the Democrats are just as confused, like a ship without a rudder. Maybe this is all just a bad dream and I'll wake up from the nightmare and find that the recounts have overturned everything. How sad that I would have to think in those terms, like expecting to win a lottery, to solve financial trouble.
Last edited by Steve McDonald; 12-01-2016 at 05:12 PM..
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