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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD
And the vast majority of Jews, (yes, even the liberal ones) are very pro Israel. Does that mean they have less integrity?
Yet the majority of Israelis don't seem to favor their Prime Minister. Does that make them anti-semitic as it seems to do in the minds of conservatives should one dare question the actions of Israel's government?
And the vast majority of Jews, (yes, even the liberal ones) are very pro Israel. Does that mean they have less integrity?
"Liberal" Jews who are "very pro Israel" are, by definition, pro ethno-state.
This is in conflict with their supposed liberalism that they demand for those without an interest in the far-Right Jewish State. So, yes, I'd certainly say that that brand of hypocritical politics means that they have less integrity.
"Liberal" Jews who are "very pro Israel" are, by definition, pro ethno-state.
This is in conflict with their supposed liberalism that they demand for those without an interest in the far-Right Jewish State. So, yes, I'd certainly say that that brand of hypocritical politics means that they have less integrity.
Your labeling of Israel as “the far-right Jewish state” doesn’t make it so.
You may see Israel as “the oppressor” and the Palestinians as “the oppressed”, but most Jews don’t see it that way.
They see Jews who have been oppressed throughout history. They see a need for a government and an army to protect their interests. They see people who hate Jews right next door who have been offered a state of their own, numerous times, but have turned it down every time. They see a people who were offered 95% of their demands in exchange for peace, but have turned it down with violence. They see people who will never be happy as long as jews are breathing, so there is nothing hypocritical about self preservation.
Your labeling of Israel as “the far-right Jewish state” doesn’t make it so.
An ethnostate is, by definition, a far-Right concept.
Quote:
You may see Israel as “the oppressor” and the Palestinians as “the oppressed”, but most Jews don’t see it that way.
I don't see it that way either. Perhaps not for the same reasons, but maybe. I'm unsure of your total context.
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They see Jews who have been oppressed throughout history.
Yes, and do you know what a lot of people see when they read that Jewish narrative that is told to by Jews to themselves?
They see a long-term inaccurate victim narrative that is used to justify political privilege and oppression. The undeniable story of the Jews, in the middle ages alone, speaks to the inaccuracy of the politically expedient eternal victim narrative.
Have Jews always been treated with civility or with inclusion? No.
However, a large part of that was the insistence of the Jews, themselves, to remain separate. A demand for inclusion while remaining self segregated culturally and in other ways. It was never going to work, and it barely works today without significant government and private controls and watch-dogging for inter-racial and inter-cultural hostility.
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They see a need for a government and an army to protect their interests. They see people who hate Jews right next door who have been offered a state of their own, numerous times, but have turned it down every time.
What on Earth do you think that the far-Right of any nation sees??
The exact same thing.
There is exactly zero difference between that perspective and the perspective of the "White" far Right. Zero difference.
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They see a people who were offered 95% of their demands in exchange for peace, but have turned it down with violence.
While no fan of the Arabs, I'd submit that your narrative is missing a heck of a lot of context. You have yours, they have theirs, but in the end the concept of an ethno-state is a far-Right one.
It used to be a Right-wing concept only. Liberal Jews were part of moving it into the far-Right category. Though, maybe they did not think that it also applied to them?
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They see people who will never be happy as long as jews are breathing, so there is nothing hypocritical about self preservation.
Yes, that's the exact same perspective as the non-Jewish European far-right. There is no meaningful difference.
An ethnostate is, by definition, a far-Right concept.
I don't see it that way either. Perhaps not for the same reasons, but maybe. I'm unsure of your total context.
A far right concept? It’s the natural evolution of man. Tribalism has been the norm since the time we were swinging from trees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by golgi1
Yes, and do you know what a lot of people see when they read that Jewish narrative that is told to by Jews to themselves?
They see a long-term inaccurate victim narrative that is used to justify political privilege and oppression. The undeniable story of the Jews, in the middle ages alone, speaks to the inaccuracy of the politically expedient eternal victim narrative.
Have Jews always been treated with civility or with inclusion? No.
However, a large part of that was the insistence of the Jews, themselves, to remain separate. A demand for inclusion while remaining self segregated culturally and in other ways. It was never going to work, and it barely works today without significant government and private controls and watch-dogging for inter-racial and inter-cultural hostility.
Here is where we are at an impasse. I think you are a revisionist and you think I am a revisionist. It makes it very difficult to have a discussion between two people who believe in two different histories.
Quote:
Originally Posted by golgi1
What on Earth do you think that the far-Right of any nation sees??
The exact same thing.
There is exactly zero difference between that perspective and the perspective of the "White" far Right. Zero difference.
While no fan of the Arabs, I'd submit that your narrative is missing a heck of a lot of context. You have yours, they have theirs, but in the end the concept of an ethno-state is a far-Right one.
It used to be a Right-wing concept only. Liberal Jews were part of moving it into the far-Right category. Though, maybe they did not think that it also applied to them?
Yes, that's the exact same perspective as the non-Jewish European far-right. There is no meaningful difference.
I have no problem with European countries keeping Europe...well...European. I used to love traveling around Europe, experiencing the different cultures as I traveled through the different countries. I think it is a travesty what is going on there now. Maybe that makes me far right, I don’t know, and I don’t really care.
A far right concept? It’s the natural evolution of man. Tribalism has been the norm since the time we were swinging from trees.
Here is where we are at an impasse. I think you are a revisionist and you think I am a revisionist. It makes it very difficult to have a discussion between two people who believe in two different histories.
I have no problem with European countries keeping Europe...well...European. I used to love traveling around Europe, experiencing the different cultures as I traveled through the different countries. I think it is a travesty what is going on there now. Maybe that makes me far right, I don’t know, and I don’t really care.
Well, we probably have more in common than we think with slightly differing views of history that could probably be ironed out.
Who knows what the future will bring. I appreciate your calm demeanor. Take care.
So, now pointing out that one frequently gets called an anti-Semite when they criticize Israel is anti-Semitic?
This is predictably getting ridiculous.
You know perfectly well that people post anti-Jewish rhetoric under the guise of "just criticizing Israel". When people like you trot out the old, "we're not allowed to criticize Israel" BS, it's usually just a smokescreen for jew bashing which supposedly is OK because they mentioned Israel in the same post too. This has become so predictable and recognizable that the ADL has written about it. https://www.adl.org/education/resour...e-anti-semites
You know perfectly well that people post anti-Jewish rhetoric under the guise of "just criticizing Israel". When people like you trot out the old, "we're not allowed to criticize Israel" BS, it's usually just a smokescreen for jew bashing which supposedly is OK because they mentioned Israel in the same post too. This has become so predictable and recognizable that the ADL has written about it. https://www.adl.org/education/resour...e-anti-semites
I know perfectly well that's how its often twisted in order to hide behind the anti-semitism accusation, a tactic that you are content to defend here.
Though that's not even quite the issue. The issue is that the concept of Israel is defended as morally normal while he same behavior from other groups is deemed far-right. The double standard is clearly worthy of criticism that is untouchable by antisemitism accusations, but that's not how the ADL and their supporters treat this double standard. To reduce antisemitism, I recommend reducing double standards.
Meanwhile, people like David Brooks take license to say things about white people in the NYT that would be labeled antisemitic by the ADL if David Duke said them about Jewish people in a likely largely unviewed youtube channel. Does he ADL have a catch-phrase for when David Brooks is racist against gentile White people? I don't think that the ADL has spent 3 seconds in 70 years thinking of one.
The truth is that the events in the Middle East are larger than this discussion. However, there will eventually be a smoothing of the political economy by design or not. I'm unsure, but there will be a convergence of interests at some point. That exists now, don't get me wrong, which is evidenced by US-UK-Israel cooperation. However, that cooperation is likely to increasingly trickle down to benefit those lower on the totem instead of a forever enforced double standard. This is obviously in the works now in my opinion. I wouldn't want to be a person playing both political sides in the mid to distant future.
Yeah, why do people advocate multiculturalism and diversity for America and right-wing ethno-nationalism for their homelands? That hypocrisy doesn't fly. If it's good for America then it's good for Israel and everyone else. Let the diversification begin.
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