Nevada Police Officer Shoots 14-Year Old Swinging a Knife at Nevada High School (carry, state)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Part of that framework is sending a minimum of four officers to lethal force situations (at least in the UK).
That simply is not affordable in the US and will never happen. Without those additional officers, there are not other means of deescalation to use.
(People forgot that, when you include killings in the "IRA war", UK police killed at rates equal to those of US cops today. Those killings were considered military actions instead of police actions, something very illegal in the US, to avoid the extra scrutiny. "All means" and "absolutely necessary" has been very fuzzy in the past.)
There is no framework in relation to a minimum number of officers, and officers often have to deal with unkown situations.
In terms of support, they can call on Police Support Units which are van loads of specially trained public order (riot) police, who can contain those with weapons using shields and Taser. Whilst area cars also have tasers and there are also armed response vehicles (ARV's) and tactical teams similar to the US SWAT Teams.
However when a knife is produced the UK Police will generally try and use Taser or other means rather than resort directly to firearms, as unless a gun is produced then they have a duty to use only reasonable force.
As for Human Rights, the UK could be taken to the Courts in Strasbourg from 1948 when we signed the European Convention on Human Rights, although in 1998 the ECHR was incorportated in to British Law.
In terms of Northern Ireland, there was a protocol in relation to the ECHR, and people who were shot by either the police or military were generally carrying weapons or engaged in terrorist activity and therefore it would be deemed 'Absolutely Necessary' under ECHR and this was made clear in Northern Ireland where non lethals such as plastic/rubber bullets (baton rounds) were also often used. Indeed as time went on the Security Services became more knowledgable and experienced in dealing with such situations.
Thankfully the situation in Northern Ireland is now much better, and there are now far fewer armed police and the army no longer patrols the streets and there are very very few people now shot by the police in NI.
Between 1968 until 1998 (the Troubles) the security forces in Northern Ireland were responsible for 367 deaths over 30 years, which works out at around 18 deaths per year and is no where near the numbers killed by US Police, which is around 1,000 per year. Indeed the US Police shoot and kill more people than were killed in the entire Northern Ireland over thirty years during the troubles in around three and a half years, and Chicago alone had 92 people killed by police officers.
It also should be noted that the Police in many European Countries are military or para-military unlike in Britain where they are civilian, the term Gendarmerie is often used to describe these officers.
It also should be noted that the US Laws and Constitution is often what you would describe as fuzzy when it comes to terrorists or have you forgotten Guantanamo Bay (the right to due process and allegations of torture) and indeed Extraordinary rendition.
Last edited by Brave New World; 12-24-2016 at 05:25 AM..
All armed police officers in the UK also carry Taser (the latest X2 model has second shot in case first fails to subdue a suspect) and Armed Response Vehicles also carry baton rounds (plastic bullets) and shields. It should be noted that over a quarter of knife incidents involve those with mental health issues.
There is no framework in relation to a minimum number of officers, and officers often have to deal with unkown situations.
In terms of support, they can call on Police Support Units which are van loads of specially trained public order (riot) police, who can contain those with weapons using shields and Taser. Whilst area cars also have tasers and there are also armed response vehicles (ARV's) and tactical teams similar to the US SWAT Teams.
However when a knife is produced the UK Police will generally try and use Taser or other means rather than resort directly to firearms, as unless a gun is produced then they have a duty to use only reasonable force.
As for Human Rights, the UK could be taken to the Courts in Strasbourg from 1948 when we signed the European Convention on Human Rights, although in 1998 the ECHR was incorportated in to British Law.
In terms of Northern Ireland, there was a protocol in relation to the ECHR, and people who were shot by either the police or military were generally carrying weapons or engaged in terrorist activity and therefore it would be deemed 'Absolutely Necessary' under ECHR and this was made clear in Northern Ireland where non lethals such as plastic/rubber bullets (baton rounds) were also often used. Indeed as time went on the Security Services became more knowledgable and experienced in dealing with such situations.
Thankfully the situation in Northern Ireland is now much better, and there are now far fewer armed police and the army no longer patrols the streets and there are very very few people now shot by the police in NI.
Between 1968 until 1998 (the Troubles) the security forces in Northern Ireland were responsible for 367 deaths over 30 years, which works out at around 18 deaths per year and is no where near the numbers killed by US Police, which is around 1,000 per year. Indeed the US Police shoot and kill more people than were killed in the entire Northern Ireland over thirty years during the troubles in around three and a half years, and Chicago alone had 92 people killed by police officers.
It also should be noted that the Police in many European Countries are military or para-military unlike in Britain where they are civilian, the term Gendarmerie is often used to describe these officers.
It also should be noted that the US Laws and Constitution is often what you would describe as fuzzy when it comes to terrorists or have you forgotten Guantanamo Bay (the right to due process and allegations of torture) and indeed Extraordinary rendition.
And (thankfully) we broke with the U.K. wayyyy back due to their laws and policies so what's your point?
And (thankfully) we broke with the U.K. wayyyy back due to their laws and policies so what's your point?
My point being that shooting people who do not have a firearm would not be justified as a first course of action in most civilised countries, and the numbers of people shot by the US police are alarming.
My point being that shooting people who do not have a firearm would not be justified as a first course of action in most civilised countries, and the numbers of people shot by the US police are alarming.
There are a lot of things that are different between what you describe as "civilized countries" ( while taking a an obvious swipe at the U.S. as not being civilized) so what?
Our government and laws are unique to us and that's what makes us special in the world. I could go on about how what y'all do leads to mass terror attacks on a regular basis, foments just average workers, no real innovations,a failing economy etc.etc.etc. but what would be the point?
We don't WANT to be like the U.K. (well most citizens don't) we are different for a reason. It's when we try to be like others that we screw up royally...
My point being that shooting people who do not have a firearm would not be justified as a first course of action in most civilised countries, and the numbers of people shot by the US police are alarming.
There have been some very questionable LE involved shootings, many of which have been discussed on here at great lengths. The one at subject here isn't one of the latter. The typical LE involved shootings generally see multiple rounds fired, with few if any fight stopping hits considering how many projectiles fly. Even if the suspect is hit and does go down quite often the fulisade will continue.
Cops are being trained to keep shooting till they are certain there is no more threat. So, even when the threat is down if he's still moving and within reach of his weapon there's still a threat. In this case the officer stopped at a single shot. If it had been a gun instead of knives involved he probably would have fired more rounds. As I see it the action was proper and not excessive. The amount of force needed to stop the threat was used and no more.
The officer also immediatly called EMS and rendered what first aid he could. What else could have been expected of him I can't say.
Whether the cop was justified will be decided by their investigation, since none of us were there, we can only speculate. However, I see a couple of things that make me think the officer had no choice. First of all, there was a knife in the possession of the kid. Why did he even have a knife at school? Being bullied is one thing, carrying a knife is another.
Secondly, a cop comes on a scene and has to make a split second decision. He does not know what he walked into..........is this another Sandy Hook ? He evidently felt he was protecting a lot of students and did what he felt best, under the circumstances.
Bottom line, the kid had no business having a knife at school.
Whether the cop was justified will be decided by their investigation, since none of us were there, we can only speculate. However, I see a couple of things that make me think the officer had no choice. First of all, there was a knife in the possession of the kid. Why did he even have a knife at school? Being bullied is one thing, carrying a knife is another.
Secondly, a cop comes on a scene and has to make a split second decision. He does not know what he walked into..........is this another Sandy Hook ? He evidently felt he was protecting a lot of students and did what he felt best, under the circumstances.
Bottom line, the kid had no business having a knife at school.
Just a clarification, he had 2 knives acting like he was in some kind of video game or bad karate movie.
There are a lot of things that are different between what you describe as "civilized countries" ( while taking a an obvious swipe at the U.S. as not being civilized) so what?
Our government and laws are unique to us and that's what makes us special in the world. I could go on about how what y'all do leads to mass terror attacks on a regular basis, foments just average workers, no real innovations,a failing economy etc.etc.etc. but what would be the point?
We don't WANT to be like the U.K. (well most citizens don't) we are different for a reason. It's when we try to be like others that we screw up royally...
Enjoy being shot for very little reason by officers of the state.
And I wouldn't want the UK to be like the US, indeed who would want to be like a country where the police can shoot people without proper justification.
Last edited by Brave New World; 12-24-2016 at 08:17 AM..
There have been some very questionable LE involved shootings, many of which have been discussed on here at great lengths. The one at subject here isn't one of the latter. The typical LE involved shootings generally see multiple rounds fired, with few if any fight stopping hits considering how many projectiles fly. Even if the suspect is hit and does go down quite often the fulisade will continue.
Cops are being trained to keep shooting till they are certain there is no more threat. So, even when the threat is down if he's still moving and within reach of his weapon there's still a threat. In this case the officer stopped at a single shot. If it had been a gun instead of knives involved he probably would have fired more rounds. As I see it the action was proper and not excessive. The amount of force needed to stop the threat was used and no more.
The officer also immediatly called EMS and rendered what first aid he could. What else could have been expected of him I can't say.
I disagree in such a situation, I would expect an officers to deploy non-lethals such as Taser or bean bag guns rather than reverting straight to what is lethal force, as no one can say what damage even a single bullet will do.
The same scenario is played out again and again in the US, with officers using firearms as their first means of response rather than non-lethal weapons which is what happens in most westernised democratic countries.
Last edited by Brave New World; 12-24-2016 at 08:34 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
