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Old 12-28-2016, 09:28 AM
 
Location: East Lansing, MI
28,355 posts, read 16,311,616 times
Reputation: 10467

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
We are NOT going to create millions of engineering jobs. What exactly are they supposed to be doing? I asked where these jobs are. You say they are there but you haven't shown where yet.

And I never claimed there would be millions of engineering jobs.




Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
I adressed those articles. They are arguing for more H1B visas. We need to end them. There are people to fill them, just not ones willing to work for little like the immigrants they bring in.

Data, please. This is the 3rd time I've asked for it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
What are they building?
Things. Are you claiming that the data showing thousands and thousands of unfilled skilled trades jobs is bogus? I'd like to see the evidence of that, if so.
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Old 12-28-2016, 09:28 AM
 
Location: St Louis, MO
4,677 posts, read 5,750,752 times
Reputation: 2981
Quote:
Originally Posted by don1945 View Post
Yes, and the reasons are right in front of your face, if you will only put your biases aside.

2008, massive layoffs and people on unemployment. 2016, companies are having trouble hiring enough new employees. "Now Hiring" signs are everywhere I look. We try to hire more people and only one or two apply. My own Son can not find a maintenance man because everyone has jobs already, and he pays a good salary with benefits.

2008, thousands and thousands of families were losing their homes, so many that whole neighborhoods were boarded up with foreclosure signs on them. 2016, many of those homes are now resold and new construction is booming.

In 2008 we were one of the very few shops to remain open in our complex.......all of our neighbors had folded up and quit. We stayed, but it was like a ghost town there. Now, there are no vacancies and every business by us is expanding.
That might be a consequence of your location; you might have been hit earlier than everywhere else.
Just this year we finally nationally hit pre-recession delinquency and foreclosure rates for the first time (around May-June), and then promptly took a drop again over the last three months. Obama may have brought the standard of living _back_ to pre-recession levels, but he certainly has not _raised_ the standard of living when measured by that standard.
More importantly, home sales are still down nationwide (there may be a new construction boom where you are, but not in the rest of the country), and house prices, while inching up, are still far below pre-recession levels.
We are still hovering at 5.5 million job openings (3.7%). Slightly above pre-recession levels (3.4%) and slightly below the levels of the early 2000s (4%). Obviously much better than the recession, but not really reflecting much _increase_ in standard of living. Perhaps more interesting is that the quits rate is still below pre-recession levels (2.1% for the last 12 months, and 2.6% pre-recession), and the turnover rate even farther below (3.4% vs 4.6%).
People are not changing jobs, despite 12-month change in total compensation still being locked under 2% until the most recent quarter (when it jumped to 2.3%) and not yet returning to the consistent 3%+ it was before the recession. (There is only a single recorded quarter before the recession, Q1 2006, below 3% before Obama took office in 2009. There has only been one quarter, Q1 2015, over 2.5% since he took office.)
Real median personal income, real median household income, and real median wages are also all just below pre-recession levels. Again, that's an improvement versus recession levels, but still not any sign that the standard of living actually increased.
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Old 12-28-2016, 09:33 AM
 
Location: St Louis, MO
4,677 posts, read 5,750,752 times
Reputation: 2981
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
Thanks for explaining this. Appreciate it.

Can you explain why people don't move to where the jobs are any more? Why they stay in a depressed area where they have no future?

The history of our nation is built on people moving to where they can be more prosperous. Why the change?

Do they really want polluted rivers? Does West Virginia really want to see all their gorgeous mountain tops dumped into the valleys by mining operations?

I'm having a difficult time making sense of this.
The first factor is that the jobs they had, matching the skills they have, do not exist anywhere in the US any more. There is nowhere to move to where they can get jobs they can compete for.

So to move to jobs, they would have to both move and get training. Even if you assume they could have that training in the new locations in under 18 months (a pretty hefty assumption), the cost of living differential between Kentucky or West Virginia and areas with high job density are so high that they would burn through what assets they have before they could obtain that training.
And you still have to find that training. Apprenticeships and on-the-job training are gone. There is no requirement to train people up before you hire an H1B instead. And you still have a networking and information differential that makes such as move an even higher risk than it was in the past.
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Old 12-28-2016, 09:34 AM
 
79,908 posts, read 44,040,844 times
Reputation: 17199
Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan View Post
And I never claimed there would be millions of engineering jobs.
That's the discussion. We need to find millions of jobs.

Quote:
Data, please. This is the 3rd time I've asked for it.
Data?

https://www.prideimmigration.com/hil...h-1b-visa-cap/

How H-1B Visas Are Screwing Tech Workers | Mother Jones

Emmons: When Walt Disney Co. replaces Americans with H1B workers, it’s a small world for sure – The Mercury News

American's were doing the jobs at Disney


Quote:
Things. Are you claiming that the data showing thousands and thousands of unfilled skilled trades jobs is bogus? I'd like to see the evidence of that, if so.
See the Disney example above. That is what is happening. There are American's that will do these jobs. There are immigrants that these companies can get to do the jobs for far less.
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Old 12-28-2016, 09:39 AM
 
Location: St Louis, MO
4,677 posts, read 5,750,752 times
Reputation: 2981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma777 View Post
He's raised mine and everyone else I know. But I've done my part as well, by continuing with education and moving to an area that has a lot of employment. If you choose to live with there are no jobs, and refuse to learn any new skills, there is a good chance your standard of living will not change or will decrease.
Which is the difference in the economy now.
This was not true for the past ~50 years before Bush and Obama. During that period, even if you did not learn cutting edge skills and did not move to a boom town, your standard of living increased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma777 View Post
And I'll take the word of a Nobel Laureate in Economics over the opinion of anonymous users on social media regarding the economy.

"...Donald J. Trump has the good fortune of taking office as the economy is finally recovering from the 2008 crisis. For Democrats, the bad news is that just as Barack Obama got tarred by the struggling economy that he inherited from George W. Bush, Trump will get credit for the good economy that he inherits from Obama—growth in the last quarter of 3.5 percent, unemployment of 4.6 percent (a level not seen for nine years), and 16 million jobs added since the recovery began...

The president-elect seems to believe that he can make the economy grow at 4 percent annually, as promised, while at the same time massively bringing down the trade and fiscal deficits, if not turning them into surpluses. But the laws of economics don’t bend to political rhetoric, and there are some surprises in store for the new president..."

A Nobel Laureate Explains How Trump Could Nuke the Economy | Vanity Fair
Notice that all of the quotes above show that the economy has only recovered, not improved, and says little about standard of living one way or another.
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Old 12-28-2016, 09:50 AM
 
16,579 posts, read 20,653,663 times
Reputation: 26860
My husband was laid off in 2008 and was unemployed for about 1.5 years. Now he has a job. Thanks, Obama!
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Old 12-28-2016, 09:52 AM
 
Location: East Lansing, MI
28,355 posts, read 16,311,616 times
Reputation: 10467
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
That's the discussion. We need to find millions of jobs.

<sigh>


Yes, and engineering jobs are obviously part of those millions. As I've already said - no single job sector will account for all the jobs needed.




None of those were skilled trades jobs - which is what we were talking about specifically. H1B is an issue, without doubt. It's not the only issue, however, and it's probably not even the biggest.

"The Senate's bipartisan Immigration Innovation Act of 2013, or "I-Squared Act," would increase that cap to as many as 300,000 foreign workers." Guess what? 300K isn't "millions", either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
See the Disney example above. That is what is happening. There are American's that will do these jobs. There are immigrants that these companies can get to do the jobs for far less.

Well, to use a refrain that you seem to love so much "Eliminating H1Bs won't result in millions of jobs.". Right? Just like vacant/needed engineering jobs - H1Bs are a piece of the puzzle. They are not the solution, in and of themselves, however.
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Old 12-28-2016, 10:51 AM
 
79,908 posts, read 44,040,844 times
Reputation: 17199
Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan View Post
<sigh>


Yes, and engineering jobs are obviously part of those millions. As I've already said - no single job sector will account for all the jobs needed.
That's not the question.

Quote:
None of those were skilled trades jobs - which is what we were talking about specifically. H1B is an issue, without doubt. It's not the only issue, however, and it's probably not even the biggest.

"The Senate's bipartisan Immigration Innovation Act of 2013, or "I-Squared Act," would increase that cap to as many as 300,000 foreign workers." Guess what? 300K isn't "millions", either.
It isn't but it is what the articles you posted where arguing for. 300,000 jobs taken away from American's that need them.

Quote:
Well, to use a refrain that you seem to love so much "Eliminating H1Bs won't result in millions of jobs.". Right? Just like vacant/needed engineering jobs - H1Bs are a piece of the puzzle. They are not the solution, in and of themselves, however.
No it won't. We need to get manufacturing jobs going again. We have two possibilities. Millions on welfare or in jobs.
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Old 12-28-2016, 11:38 AM
 
Location: East Lansing, MI
28,355 posts, read 16,311,616 times
Reputation: 10467
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
That's not the question.

You asked "where are the jobs?" and part of the answer is a need for engineers.



Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
It isn't but it is what the articles you posted where arguing for. 300,000 jobs taken away from American's that need them.

The articles I posted were a means to highlight the very real lack of skilled trades workers in the US. It's real enough that Mike Rowe has started a non-profit to help try to address it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
No it won't. We need to get manufacturing jobs going again. We have two possibilities. Millions on welfare or in jobs.

Manufacturing is not necessarily the only option. I don't understand why you think it's some sort of magic bullet.
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Old 12-28-2016, 11:39 AM
 
79,908 posts, read 44,040,844 times
Reputation: 17199
Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan View Post
You asked "where are the jobs?" and part of the answer is a need for engineers.
We are wasting space here.
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