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The founders left a lot unsaid because they KNEW things would change. They certainly did not claim to have foreseen every possible issue that might arise in the centuries following their adoption of the constitution. So they did their damnedest to outline a structure that could adapt to change without betraying the original ideal - a fair government that was responsive to the needs of ordinary people. However complex those needs have gotten...
Right, "now we're talking."
I am a big fan of what our founding fathers did, the Constitution, an amazing effort by such a collection of great minds to perform what some consider an act of genius, and with good reason. Can't argue with success, now over 200 years and still going despite a population then of only 2.5 million to now over 350 million people making up an economy of $20 trillion, per year!
I mostly agree, but I also can't help but think our founding fathers crafted the Constitution at such a different time under such different circumstances compared to the world we live in today, is it adequate? Surely it is not perfect nor can be perfect for obvious reasons. Our founding fathers were mere mortals after all, dealing with the realities of their time. Fortunately they were forward thinkers, progressives of their time, but they could not see the future.
Would they have crafted the electoral college process today like they did then for example? What would they do about the problem of so much special interest money undermining and/or corrupting the concept of representative, democratic principles? How might they address the gun violence problem in America today?
Wouldn't we love to have them back for a brief bit to find out?
the people through their elected representatives to provide a system of health care through the federal government
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare,
I am a big fan of what our founding fathers did, the Constitution, an amazing effort by such a collection of great minds to perform what some consider an act of genius, and with good reason. Can't argue with success, now over 200 years and still going despite a population then of only 2.5 million to now over 350 million people making up an economy of $20 trillion, per year!
I mostly agree, but I also can't help but think our founding fathers crafted the Constitution at such a different time under such different circumstances compared to the world we live in today, is it adequate? Surely it is not perfect nor can be perfect for obvious reasons. Our founding fathers were mere mortals after all, dealing with the realities of their time. Fortunately they were forward thinkers, progressives of their time, but they could not see the future.
Would they have crafted the electoral college process today like they did then for example? What would they do about the problem of so much special interest money undermining and/or corrupting the concept of representative, democratic principles? How might they address the gun violence problem in America today?
Wouldn't we love to have them back for a brief bit to find out?
I sure would.
But it might take a few years for them to recover sufficiently from culture shock in order to formulate sensible opinions!
Do either believe the quote 'people get the government they deserve'?
Not really. Do North Koreans, for instance, have the government they deserve?
But if you're asking whether Americans get the government they deserve - that's a trickier question. In the long run, yes, I think we do. But we do go off on a lot of four- and eight-year tangents, some of them more beneficial than others.
Under such interpretation (never mind it is at complete odds with the founders and the numerous arguments made by the founders), the government has supreme power over the people as anything could then be rationalized to be under such purview.
Not really. Do North Koreans, for instance, have the government they deserve?
But if you're asking whether Americans get the government they deserve - that's a trickier question. In the long run, yes, I think we do. But we do go off on a lot of four- and eight-year tangents, some of them more beneficial than others.
Providence... the non capitalized definition refers to acts that could be divinely inspired but have a logical, rational explanation (ex: the writing of the Declaration, Washington crossing the Delaware under a fog bank and the Hessians being drunk allowing for surprise and victory. Many acts through history that 'luck' kinda falls short).
I only meant the US although the gov one deserves can be extrapolated. Would the N Koreans lose a f ton of citizens overthrowing the dictatorship? Yes. They could do it. They don't. So they do deserve to be ruled in that manner. In the US case: we were handed 2 of the greatest Documents Humans created, some contend only thru providence, -and many contend we have made a travashamockery of it.
the people through their elected representatives to provide a system of health care through the federal government
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare,
Promote the general Welfare
Article 1 section 8
Specific welfare vs general welfare. Miss that part? Or the part about a small Federal government with a defined role and states rights? Miss that too?
Providence... the non capitalized definition refers to acts that could be divinely inspired but have a logical, rational explanation (ex: the writing of the Declaration, Washington crossing the Delaware under a fog bank and the Hessians being drunk allowing for surprise and victory. Many acts through history that 'luck' kinda falls short).
OK, I didn't know whether you meant that or being provident.
I do believe in being provident, as far as one possibly can.
I don't believe in divinity at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stymie13
I only meant the US although the gov one deserves can be extrapolated. Would the N Koreans lose a f ton of citizens overthrowing the dictatorship? Yes. They could do it. They don't. So they do deserve to be ruled in that manner.
You're a lot sterner than I am. Pulling a number out of my hat here, but it might take 50 unarmed koreans to take down one korean military/police officer. Assuming they could even manage to communicate and organize effectively, which they couldn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stymie13
In the US case: we were handed 2 of the greatest Documents Humans created, some contend only thru providence, -and many contend we have made a travashamockery of it.
I don't think divinity had anything to do with it. Both the constitution and the doi were/are human productions, the result of extensive education, some very deep thinking, and intense debate. I greatly admire their achievement, and while a lot has changed since then, I think most americans do their best to apply the enlightenment principles and ideals that underlie these documents, while still living in the modern world.
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