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Old 01-16-2017, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Long Island
8,840 posts, read 4,805,229 times
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Interesting that in his last week as VP, Biden is traveling to Ukraine.

 
Old 01-16-2017, 02:36 PM
 
Location: Florida
76,971 posts, read 47,629,107 times
Reputation: 14806
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Says who?
Common sense. You think they would have stopped at Berlin? Why?

Quote:
Russians don't want to take over Europe - never wanted to. They see value in France-England- Germany. When you'll stop equating "Finland" with "Europe," everything will fall into right places)))
How do you know what they want, or don't want? Finland is not the only country concerned about Russian aggression. As a matter of fact, you are the only one even mentioning Finland.
 
Old 01-16-2017, 06:19 PM
 
26,787 posts, read 22,549,184 times
Reputation: 10038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Common sense. You think they would have stopped at Berlin? Why?

How do you know what they want, or don't want? Finland is not the only country concerned about Russian aggression. As a matter of fact, you are the only one even mentioning Finland.
Common sense.
Just follow everything they did so far in history in this respect.
Russians were in Europe under Suvorov's commandment, then yet again - under Kutuzov's and even during the WWI from what I remember. But every time they'd pack their things and leave as soon as their commanders were ready to go home. In the case of WWI it was painstakingly clear that Russians leave not because they are losing the battles, but because they have turmoil at home. Russia is huge, with plenty of internal problems. Russia only LOOKS like a monolith country, where everything is set to tick in unified way, but it's not quite so. There are plenty of contradictions there - between the classes, between metropoly and provinces, between ethnic Russians and other ethnicities, between the beliefs of varies political fractions, between the state and the church. With other words, Russians have their hands full, dealing with their internal contradictions within the territories they own as it is. They wouldn't know what to do with Europeans, had they conquered them - and by this I mean WESTERN EUROPEANS, not the Eastern ones, since Russians deem the latter ones close to their own culture and therefore being "absorbable."
And this includes Finland ( as much as Poland and Baltic countries, not to mention Ukraine, which Russians often don't even consider as something separate/different from them.)
So whenever Russians feel threatened by the West, their generals start planning the war of attrition (Russians overall like to surround themselves with "buffer zones," since the bitter experience taught them to do so,) and naturally such "European countries" as Poland, Finland, Latvia-Estonia-Lithuania get included in this potential "buffer zone," and therefore they are the ones to sound the alarm, appealing to the powers to be ( US in this case) for protection.
I hope this explains why WESTERN Europe never had a worry to be overtaken by Russia, where EASTERN Europe did.
Russia is not AS unpredictable; a country with no rhyme and reason as some tend to believe))) Just follow the history and you'll get the idea)))

Last edited by erasure; 01-16-2017 at 07:28 PM..
 
Old 01-16-2017, 07:44 PM
 
26,497 posts, read 15,074,947 times
Reputation: 14644
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
The missile defense system is up and running
Yes. You are ignoring that fact that Obama did a 180 after a few years of blunders with Russia AND that everyone in eastern Europe saw it as protection from Russia.


Obama did stop it and then brought it back after giving Putin more flexibility to sway his reelection against Romney.
 
Old 01-18-2017, 06:21 PM
 
18,069 posts, read 18,818,113 times
Reputation: 25191
Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon View Post
Yes. You are ignoring that fact that Obama did a 180 after a few years of blunders with Russia AND that everyone in eastern Europe saw it as protection from Russia.


Obama did stop it and then brought it back after giving Putin more flexibility to sway his reelection against Romney.
No, Obama did not stop the defense shield. Upon advice of experts, the location of the missiles were changed to a sea based system, ships patrolling the Med.

Anyone who sees this system as protection from Europe is delusion, or intentionally misleading. Russia has thousands of missiles, the entire defense shield only consists of a couple of dozen of missiles, with the planned Poland system consisting of ten missiles. Hell, Russian missiles stationed in Kalinigrad are outside the operational zone for the system, not to mentioned the numerous submarine launched missiles Russia has.
 
Old 01-18-2017, 06:36 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
16,911 posts, read 10,591,580 times
Reputation: 16439
The eastern most area of Ukraine overwhelmingly wants to be either independent or part of Russia. Why are we now against freedom and democracy?
 
Old 01-18-2017, 06:44 PM
 
18,069 posts, read 18,818,113 times
Reputation: 25191
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey View Post
The eastern most area of Ukraine overwhelmingly wants to be either independent or part of Russia. Why are we now against freedom and democracy?
The issue there and other areas of the former USSR (there are many border disputes going on), is that no one seems to want to acknowledge that the borders were drawn for the purpose of the USSR, and not made for the purpose of independent countries. Upon the break-up, this issue was just brushed under the rug, and everyone seemed to think that noting would ever come of it, ignoring the issues that occurred in Africa and the Middle East caused by border issues.

The issue with Ukraine is that the area who supported Yanukovich the most, is now the area that is attempting to break away, but that is what happens when a group who lost the vote, uses force to oust the candidate that won. So many people in those areas do not have a desire to be part of a country that ignores their vote.
 
Old 01-18-2017, 06:50 PM
 
Location: Long Island
57,286 posts, read 26,206,502 times
Reputation: 15645
All this election year rhetoric is scaring our NATO allies, Trump needs to calm their fears.
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