Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Not true at all. It's only efficient between two fixed locations with lots of traffic. For 90% of the USA it is totally inefficient.
Government heavily subsidizes rail and has for 200 years.
No, that is not correct. Union Pacific and the other American freight railroads are not government subsidized. Passenger service such as Amtrak and the various local commuter RRs are another matter, they do receive both local and federal tax funding.
Yeah totally, our roads, schools, police and fire departments make no sense.
I would argue that Amtrak is a failure because it's treated as a service for the smaller towns, not the big cities. For example, the train between St. Louis and Chicago stops at small towns like Pontiac IL and small metros like Springfield IL. And yet it still takes shorter time than a car. Imagine how fast it would be if it was just a straight shot between StL and Chi. And that distance is about the same as the distance between dozens of pairs of other Midwestern and Southern cities. I'd even wager it could make a profit with a no-stops policy.
The government also needs to rid itself of its focus on cross-country trains-as scenic as they are, they are major money losers. Our rail network needs to be seen as more of a series of connections between cities rather than a cross country carrier, or else it will never be competitive.
Like the private passenger railroads before Amtrak has tried to cease non-profitable service, especially long distance trains. Each time they make an attempt some little old lady or whatever constituent contacts their representative in Washington D.C. who in turn leans on Amtrak. In short order the thing is dropped, for now; but make no mistake sooner or later Amtrak is going to get short of unprofitable routes.
AmTrak fails because the prices are high. I priced Phili to Chicago. Am Trak is slightly more and takes 7.5 hours.
A flight takes far less time and costs slightly less.
I look at Amtrak as an excursion.
When overseas I use trains to travel a lot. They are cheaper than airfare and you see more.
High speed trains work in other countries for commuters and they are comfortable. We could make it work here if there was a will to do so.
Passenger service in Europe is highly subsidized which brings down the ticket prices.
Outside of the NEC Amtrak owns very little ROW, and as such is forced to rely upon private freight railroads. In most all cases their trains take precedence over Amtrak.
Amtrak's ROW outside the NEC (and even within) is horribly out of date. In order to have fast speeds certain signaling and other safety systems must be installed as per law. Since Amtrak does not own these ROWs outside of NEC it does not have the juice to force private railroads to install such systems on a speedy schedule. The freight railroads by and large do not need "fast" or "HSR" trains so as you can imagine aren't in any huge rush to spend resources that mainly benefit Amtrak.
Finally one thing about American railroads has not changed; they are heavily under the influence of unions and their rules. The number of crew, and for how long they can work is regulated and also under contract.
Not true at all. It's only efficient between two fixed locations with lots of traffic. For 90% of the USA it is totally inefficient.
Prior to the automobile (and subsidized roads, etc), 1890-1920, 90% of all travel was by electric traction rail (This is not including steam powered mainline RRs).
The vast network of urban and interurban rail exceeded the mileage of today's Interstate highway system. If all rail modes were tallied, the number of track miles exceeded 300,000.
As to "efficiency" that is a reference to the fact that steel wheel on steel rail has an advantage over rubber tire on pavement.
... Science of Railway Locomotion
At the same constant speed, on level ground, drawing the same load, any steel wheeled railway vehicle already in motion, will use only 5% (1/20) of the energy consumed by any large pneumatic tire road vehicle already in motion. Upon starting and initial acceleration, any steel wheeled railway vehicle will only use 10% (1/10) of the energy demanded by any large pneumatic tire road vehicle.
... 90 to 95% saving on fuel..
THAT'S EFFICIENCY.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadking2003
Government heavily subsidizes rail and has for 200 years.
Please produce some facts in support. Especially since 2016-200 = 1816, twenty years before railroads existed in America (1830s).
In reality, privately owned railroads have been gouged by taxes and plagued by regulations.
04. AMTRAK
From the middle 19th century until approximately 1920, nearly all intercity travelers in the United States moved by rail. The rails and the trains were owned and operated by private, for-profit organizations.
For a long time after 1920, passenger rail's popularity diminished and there was a series of pullbacks and tentative recoveries. Rail passenger revenues declined dramatically between 1920 and 1934 because of the rise of the [subsidized] automobile. In the same period, many travelers were lost to interstate bus companies such as Greyhound Lines
. . .
The causes of the decline of passenger rail in the United States were complex. Until 1920, rail was the only practical form of intercity transport, but the industry was subject to government regulation and labor inflexibility. By 1930, the railroad companies had constructed, with private funding, a vast and relatively efficient transportation network, but when the federal government began to construct the National Highway System, the railroads found themselves faced with unprecedented competition for passengers and freight with automobiles, buses, trucks, and aircraft, all of which were heavily subsidized by the government road and airport building programs.
. . .
... railroads carried a substantial tax burden. A World War II era excise tax of 15% on passenger rail travel survived until 1962. Local governments, far from providing needed support to passenger rail, viewed rail infrastructure as a ready source for property tax revenues. In one extreme example, in 1959, the Great Northern Railway, which owned about a third of one percent (0.34%) of the land in Lincoln County, Montana, was assessed more than 91% of all school taxes in the county. To this day, railroads are generally taxed at a higher rate than other industries, and the rates vary greatly from state to state.
Railroads also faced antiquated work rules and inflexible relationships with trade unions. Work rules did not adapt to technological change. Average train speeds had doubled from 1919 to 1959, but unions resisted efforts to modify their existing 100- to 150-mile work days. As a result, railroad workers' average work days were roughly cut in half, from 57½ hours in 1919 to 23½ hours in 1959. Labor rules also perpetuated positions that had been obviated by technology. Between 1947 and 1957, passenger railroad financial efficiency dropped by 42% per mile.
- - - end of excerpt - - -
Private rails got little government support, and when destroyed or taken over by public authorities, were mismanaged even more.
Never let government control anything you do not want destroyed.
Prior to the automobile (and subsidized roads, etc), 1890-1920, 90% of all travel was by electric traction rail (This is not including steam powered mainline RRs).
The vast network of urban and interurban rail exceeded the mileage of today's Interstate highway system. If all rail modes were tallied, the number of track miles exceeded 300,000.
As to "efficiency" that is a reference to the fact that steel wheel on steel rail has an advantage over rubber tire on pavement.
... Science of Railway Locomotion
At the same constant speed, on level ground, drawing the same load, any steel wheeled railway vehicle already in motion, will use only 5% (1/20) of the energy consumed by any large pneumatic tire road vehicle already in motion. Upon starting and initial acceleration, any steel wheeled railway vehicle will only use 10% (1/10) of the energy demanded by any large pneumatic tire road vehicle.
... 90 to 95% saving on fuel..
THAT'S EFFICIENCY.
Please produce some facts in support. Especially since 2016-200 = 1816, twenty years before railroads existed in America (1830s).
In reality, privately owned railroads have been gouged by taxes and plagued by regulations.
04. AMTRAK
From the middle 19th century until approximately 1920, nearly all intercity travelers in the United States moved by rail. The rails and the trains were owned and operated by private, for-profit organizations.
For a long time after 1920, passenger rail's popularity diminished and there was a series of pullbacks and tentative recoveries. Rail passenger revenues declined dramatically between 1920 and 1934 because of the rise of the [subsidized] automobile. In the same period, many travelers were lost to interstate bus companies such as Greyhound Lines
. . .
The causes of the decline of passenger rail in the United States were complex. Until 1920, rail was the only practical form of intercity transport, but the industry was subject to government regulation and labor inflexibility. By 1930, the railroad companies had constructed, with private funding, a vast and relatively efficient transportation network, but when the federal government began to construct the National Highway System, the railroads found themselves faced with unprecedented competition for passengers and freight with automobiles, buses, trucks, and aircraft, all of which were heavily subsidized by the government road and airport building programs.
. . .
... railroads carried a substantial tax burden. A World War II era excise tax of 15% on passenger rail travel survived until 1962. Local governments, far from providing needed support to passenger rail, viewed rail infrastructure as a ready source for property tax revenues. In one extreme example, in 1959, the Great Northern Railway, which owned about a third of one percent (0.34%) of the land in Lincoln County, Montana, was assessed more than 91% of all school taxes in the county. To this day, railroads are generally taxed at a higher rate than other industries, and the rates vary greatly from state to state.
Railroads also faced antiquated work rules and inflexible relationships with trade unions. Work rules did not adapt to technological change. Average train speeds had doubled from 1919 to 1959, but unions resisted efforts to modify their existing 100- to 150-mile work days. As a result, railroad workers' average work days were roughly cut in half, from 57½ hours in 1919 to 23½ hours in 1959. Labor rules also perpetuated positions that had been obviated by technology. Between 1947 and 1957, passenger railroad financial efficiency dropped by 42% per mile.
- - - end of excerpt - - -
Private rails got little government support, and when destroyed or taken over by public authorities, were mismanaged even more.
Never let government control anything you do not want destroyed.
Unions fought railroads down to the mat over diesel locomotives. Where the railroad saw huge potential savings in labor, infrastructure, maintenance and so forth switching from steam to diesel; the unions saw job losses. As such so much featherbedding often went on that places didn't get the savings they would have otherwise. Great Moments in Labor Relations | Coyote Blog
But those numbers are operating costs only. They don't include the cost of land and rail investment. If they included all costs, almost all (or all) would be operating at a loss.
How much is the cost of land and rail investment? How much is that offset by Amtrak leasing use of its tracks to regional commuter railroads?
No, that is not correct. Union Pacific and the other American freight railroads are not government subsidized. Passenger service such as Amtrak and the various local commuter RRs are another matter, they do receive both local and federal tax funding.
The discussion is around passenger rail, not freight.
There go the highways. The Erie Canal was backed by government guarantees. The Transcontinental railroad was financed by government land grants.
The up-front investment and associated risk in large infrastructure projects is too much for private enterprise to handle.
I'm not going argue against roads, canals, rail etc. I'll argue that all these things would exist absent a central planning authority (in this case the fedguv) building them. To say otherwise would be to believe people wouldn't want to travel,relocate or trade with one another.
Like a good Christian who credits everything to God, the faithful statist credits their govt.
The discussion is around passenger rail, not freight.
Comment responded to a post stating the (US) government has subsidized rail transport for "200 years". To a general comment was a general response.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
