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How about a woman that wants to have an abortion because the baby is going to be severely disabled. But she lives in a state that has restricted abortion so much that she doesn't get an abortion, though she wanted to. Now she has a child that will never be able to work and will be severely disabled and will require extensive medical care. The mother will either have to stop working to care for the child, or place the child in specialty daycare specific for disabled children which is very costly.
The child will need extensive healthcare and also will never be able to be independent, even as an adult.
Most congenital defects/random defects that will severely affect a child are not dx'd until the typical 20 week ultra sound.
Good friend of mine found out, at her 20 week u/s that her baby had Potter's Syndrome (no kidneys). She COULD have gone full term and risked sepsis (for herself) and given birth. For a baby that wouldn't have lived more than a few hours after being born.
She already had a child. Was not going to risk her health. Checked in to the hospital (Catholic hospital...induction of a 22 weeker was not considered an abortion. 22 weeks by the time she made her decision and was checked in to the hospital). After 5 days of internal and IV meds that were supposed to induce labor didn't work? She was fed up & both she and her husband needed to get home to their child. Packed her bags, crossed state lines (to PA) and had a late-term "abortion".
So, it can be done.
Last edited by Informed Info; 01-17-2017 at 11:09 PM..
Well, sort of, yeah. That sure was the answer for thousands of years. Except that there need not be a "majority" to lock you up. A mere nod of the head by an authoritarian ruler was quite enough to put you in chains.
Your arguments seem to be perfect proof of the views of Thomas Hobbes - that man is inherently "bad" (sorry, his concept not mine) who if left to his own devices will choose to act only in his own interest. Hobbes' solution to that little "problem" was, of course, that big bad ruler.
Fortunately, political debate on from Hobbesian concepts. The American revolution was modeled to a great extent on the philosophy of John Locke. As George Washington put it, “Virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government.” You can’t have a free society where every man is out for himself.
Try reading some of the Enlightenment philosophers - the founding Fathers sure did in an effort to devise our system. You may find that there's a whole lot more to the American concept of "freedom" than YOU not having to pay some taxes.
*In his best commercial voice over voice
This post brought to you by State-compulsory indoctrination centers.
State-compulsory indoctrination centers: brainwashing since 1852.
Another question. Do people who refuse to work have a right to be called an equal American citizen regardless of where they were born? I believe there should be a level of citizenship without the right to vote and other rights restricted for criminal, lazy elements.
Well, sort of, yeah. That sure was the answer for thousands of years. Except that there need not be a "majority" to lock you up. A mere nod of the head by an authoritarian ruler was quite enough to put you in chains.
Your arguments seem to be perfect proof of the views of Thomas Hobbes - that man is inherently "bad" (sorry, his concept not mine) who if left to his own devices will choose to act only in his own interest. Hobbes' solution to that little "problem" was, of course, that big bad ruler.
Fortunately, political debate on from Hobbesian concepts. The American revolution was modeled to a great extent on the philosophy of John Locke. As George Washington put it, “Virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government.” You can’t have a free society where every man is out for himself.
Try reading some of the Enlightenment philosophers - the founding Fathers sure did in an effort to devise our system. You may find that there's a whole lot more to the American concept of "freedom" than YOU not having to pay some taxes.
Agreed, there is more to freedom than getting rid of income tax. Not that the poster you were referring to thinks otherwise. But getting rid of the income tax is a heck of a start on freedom.
Like I've said for awhile... Federal Open Insurance Market of various insurance companies offering various insurances. States set max prices of insurances from this Market to ensure affordability to all.
States replace Medicaid with a State funded insurance that adjust to individuals income/family size (Must work 15 or more hours to apply for this insurance). Medicaid will still be around for those on disability, but cracking down on fraud. Individuals can apply for 36 month Medicaid if meet certain criteria and after 36 month's if not on disability have to wait 24 month's before reapplying. Also during those 36 month's have to actively being searching for work or in a job training program. Also unemployment insurance if on unemployment and not covered under COBRA; This is available for 12 month's from date of being unemploymed.
Individuals are allowed to purchase State Insurance and no restrictions due to how much you make. However, for example if single making $50,000 have to pay an excess fee.
Increase employees pay by 2%.
Transparency on what each insurance covers and allowed after 3 month's to switch insurances once a year.
Ability to set up Health Savings Accounts at various organizations outside of the Government.
Taxes for Universal Healthcare for those 70 and over, Universal Mental Healthcare, and Catastrophic/Emergency Health Insurance.
Prisoners have to pay for their own health insurance.
Do away with red tape and various regulations with the FDA. Bust up medical supply and pharmaceutical monopolies. End patents on medical equipment.
Loan forgiveness for Graduate studies of medical professions.
Medical services are tax exempt. Healthcare facilities that are not own by private organization do not owe State or Federal taxes.
Health Insurance credit that can reduce payment if do various activities. Examples be running in races, year without smoking, low cholesterol, and so forth.
Agreed, there is more to freedom than getting rid of income tax. Not that the poster you were referring to thinks otherwise. But getting rid of the income tax is a heck of a start on freedom.
Bargaining with a terrorist (the State) only legitimizes its existence.
You can't work yourself down to freedom. It is and has to be the default setting of a human being.
My parents paid for my school because they paid taxes. No one else did. No one else helped pay for my schooling. We didn't get government welfare. The ones who don't pay taxes benefit.
I did.
Businesses flee because the cost of doing business here, wages and oddly enough taxes, drives those businesses out. You not knowing that is another reason I get made at our inadequate education system.
lol No I don't. You made that up
So according to you before we had income tax in 1913 we were a stone age society. Again we had schools, roads, and we defended our country well. Whatever you do make sure you ignore those facts and instead deflect and make it about something that is far removed from reality.
I get it. You don't have what it takes to fight so you bow down to your oppressors. I wasn't raised that way. I'd rather fight the big government freaks who are trying to ruin society because of their poor education and ethically bankrupt values.
We have a major reality gap here.
The government was largely funded by tariffs before the income tax was enacted early in the 20th century. Trying to run a modern worldwide economy today with that kind of tariff structure would paralyze business development, result in a plunging standard of living. The advent of the income tax with resulting governmental and institutional changes largely made the existence of an urbanized middle class possible.
That fact that we did not have a stone age society prior to 1913 is completely irrelevant to any argument that we could restructure our economy to a 19th America. A return to a life on the farm is not viable in 2016. Agronomics 101.
As for property taxes and other government funding for education? Where to start? Yes, I grasp that you would have the parents of children and only those parents fund their education. If that's the case, why then should YOU in any way benefit from the education that these former children now grown adults possess?
Want to run a business? It is YOU the employer who receives the economic benefits of the education provided to your employees in their early years. The parents? They only get bragging rights (unless of course the kids are turning their wages over to them). Why should their parents spend money to educate them? It's their responsibility you might argue. Says who? The government? There's simply no way to argue that an educated population does not benefit the nation as a whole.
It's the same argument that others have made with respect to specific taxes. Trying to carve yourself into an artificially independent island where you give nothing but then are oblivious to what you receive simply is nonsensical.
Last edited by EveryLady; 01-17-2017 at 11:13 PM..
In the UK cigarettes are very heavily taxed. Alcohol less so, but still taxed. If you smoke and drink then you, personally, pay for it - at source - and, in my opinion, rightly so - as the NHS (ie: every other taxpayer) is effectively paying for your healthcare. The NHS is there for everyone. But, if you can afford it, you can "go private", skip the queue for non-emergency procedures and, for example, have a private room as opposed to being on a ward. It's a far from perfect system but at least people won't be bankrupted by a broken leg if they have no insurance. For the record, I live in the US and have a private health insurance policy (not through the ACA). I can't fault the care I have received when needed but the cost is, to me, exorbitant. The billing is, to the layman, practically indecipherable. More transparency alone would, in my opinion, go a long way towards forming a more streamlined, competitive and affordable healthcare system for everyone.
FAR from perfect.
Quote:
Almost every area of U.K. state-provided treatment from cancer to the emergency room and midwifery is complaining of overcrowding and underfunding.
Quote:
“Not even in Communist China did they have managers overruling doctors in the operation of hospitals and health services,” Dr. Peter Holden, a member of the BMA, is quoted as saying.
But even though British physicians say that NHS bureaucrats are compromising patient care to save money, the government-run healthcare system is about to run out of funds, the Telegraph reported July 5th.
And by 2020, the largest single-payer healthcare system in the world will be running a deficit six times larger than its annual operating budget, forcing the closure of up to 20 percent of Britain’s hospitals, which are already inundated with patients seeking free care.
Quote:
A recent Telegraph investigation found “ambulance patients waiting up to eight hours” to be transferred to emergency rooms, adding that “the numbers forced to wait at least two hours outside A&Es (Accident & Emergency Centers) “has risen by two thirds in just one year.”
The idea that single-payer systems don’t have medical bankruptcies is based on the fact that health care is “free” at the point of service in such systems. After all, if people don’t have to pay for health care (at least not directly), how could they have a bankruptcy due to medical bills?
Quote:
Consider Torron Eeles, a British plumber who broke his upper left arm in a fall. While he waited for an operation, his arm twisted into a … well … just take a look at the photo.....At one point Eeles had waited 12 months because his operation had been cancelled four times.
Eeles is far from alone. Britain’s National Health Service estimates that, as of June, at least 3 million patients were waiting for treatments such as surgery, while over 15,600 operations were cancelled at the last minute in the second quarter of 2014. Another 809,000 patients were waiting for a diagnostic test. With so many people waiting for care, and some of those people unable to work because of it, some bankruptcies are inevitable.
This post brought to you by State-compulsory indoctrination centers.
State-compulsory indoctrination centers: brainwashing since 1852.
Funny. (No sarcasm, liked the over voice thing.)
But, yes, I DID help my kid with American History. And the excellent public school she attended DID encourage reading original texts from the various Enlightenment philosophies that the Founding Fathers drew upon in writing the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. You know, the ideas that helped us to move away from authoritarianism. To freedom of thought. To reason.
Well, sort of, yeah. That sure was the answer for thousands of years. Except that there need not be a "majority" to lock you up. A mere nod of the head by an authoritarian ruler was quite enough to put you in chains.
Your arguments seem to be perfect proof of the views of Thomas Hobbes - that man is inherently "bad" (sorry, his concept not mine) who if left to his own devices will choose to act only in his own interest. Hobbes' solution to that little "problem" was, of course, that big bad ruler.
Fortunately, political debate on from Hobbesian concepts. The American revolution was modeled to a great extent on the philosophy of John Locke. As George Washington put it, “Virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government.” You can’t have a free society where every man is out for himself.
Try reading some of the Enlightenment philosophers - the founding Fathers sure did in an effort to devise our system. You may find that there's a whole lot more to the American concept of "freedom" than YOU not having to pay some taxes.
Alright, I'll highlight a few points... Not my shortest post ever, but important points...
- I was asking where the government (any government...King, democracy, republic, dictator, anything) gets the right to do things that are considered wrong if done by regular citizens. Obviously they CAN physically do it because most citizens will allow them to, but people can't delegate rights to anyone that none of them had to begin with. If I can't rob you to fund my pet cause, how is it any different if me and a bunch of my friends get together and elect someone to rob you to fund my pet cause?
- I'm well aware of Hobbes and disagree with his views on the state of nature. Man isn't inherently good or bad, first of all...but let's just say that is true. If men are good, no government is necessary, of course. If men are bad, we shouldn't be giving some of them power to rule over everyone else because that will only amplify their ability to do bad.
- The argument that people will only act in their own self-interest without a ruler is the same type of argument as saying that there's no morality without religion. People don't do the right thing just because some authority told them to. That isn't to say deterrents to crime aren't needed, but you don't need to give anyone special authority for that. Everyone has the right to defense against aggressors.
- Washington was wrong. Virtue and morality spring from philosophy, and whatever beliefs the majority holds in a society, those beliefs will play out. Reminds me of when people say that the law influences people's opinion of right and wrong, when it's actually the other way around. If 7/10 people think rape is wrong, rape won't be allowed there, regardless of what some document says about it.
- Some of the founding fathers absolutely hated the constitution because it left too much wiggle room for the federal government, so it wasn't exactly a consensus...but let's say they generally agreed on the idea of individual rights. They had a lot of the concepts completely correct, but didn't take them to their logical conclusions. They believed that government was just there to protect it's citizens and their property...except for when they take their property by force through taxation, or later, things like eminent domain.
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