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Old 02-16-2017, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,512,553 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Bully View Post
So are you saying the good parts of those days could not have existed without the negative things you just listed? If so, why not?
Basically, things were good for Christian whites, because they had pretty much all the good stuff to themselves through things like Jim Crow and redlining. Ask a minority how good things were in the 50s...
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Old 02-16-2017, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Posting from my space yacht.
8,452 posts, read 4,728,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
We're all saying that BECAUSE those things existed back then, it isn't worth it. We can't change history, we can only respond to it.
So the good and the bad cannot be separated, one couldn't have existed without the other, is what you're saying. I think you're wrong, or at least hope so, and you ought to hope so too. And if you assume that people who long for the good things they remember from those days are also longing for those bad things to return I'd say you're wrong about that too.
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Old 02-16-2017, 12:14 PM
 
16,579 posts, read 20,649,490 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Bully View Post
So are you saying the good parts of those days could not have existed without the negative things you just listed? If so, why not?
I guess what I'm saying is that when we look back at the "olden days," we tend to do so with rose-colored glasses. Things were undoubtedly simpler in the 50's (I was born in the early 60's), but they were not idyllic. And life could be extremely harsh for people of color and women. I have fond memories of hanging out in the neighborhood with my friends, but I wasn't a black person wanting to sit at a lunch counter in Alabama.

I think that the OP is superficial and short-sighted. Of course, we could all use a dose of civility, but I don't think things are necessarily less civil than they used to be. Black people were getting set upon by dogs and blasted with water hoses with the support of their highest state officials for trying to integrate schools. I know you've seen the videos of people shouting horrible things at little black children walking up the school house steps. That was not civil behavior.

Another example the OP notes is that unwed mothers don't have any shame. There were unwed pregnant women in the 50's and many were so ashamed that they had back alley abortions, or were spirited away and forced to give up their children. My mother had two sisters who never had children and she told me it was because they both had botched abortions when they were young. I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is true, I don't think that the shame they felt, which led to an illegal abortion, should be seen as a positive.

The title of the OP is "Cultural rot is our biggest problem." But I don't think that's true. I think our biggest problem is that most of us born in the 50's and 60's grew up in a time of unprecedented growth and wealth, spawned by WWII. There was a feeling that it would never end, but of course it had to. Growth takes resources and the U.S. started sucking up resources at an alarming rate. Because many of the resources are finite (coal, steel, fish, lumber all come to mind), once they're gone, they're gone. We've lost the backbone of the production economy on which the middle class was based and I don't see how we're going to get it back. An inability to get ahead despite one's best efforts leads to despair, which leads to drug addiction, teen pregnancies, abandoned families, and short-term thinking.

Probably more answer than you were wanting.
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Old 02-19-2017, 04:51 PM
 
72,855 posts, read 62,315,573 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Bully View Post
So the good and the bad cannot be separated, one couldn't have existed without the other, is what you're saying. I think you're wrong, or at least hope so, and you ought to hope so too. And if you assume that people who long for the good things they remember from those days are also longing for those bad things to return I'd say you're wrong about that too.
No it cannot in this case. When the bad would affect your life in very adverse ways, it just isn't worth it. You can think I'm wrong all you want. I don't think I'm wrong in making sure I look out for my interests. The 1950s just doesn't have it for me.
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Old 02-19-2017, 04:56 PM
 
3,491 posts, read 2,770,356 times
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To me a lot of this is caused by a lack of manners. Just look at Trump and his lack of manners, like the way he's talked about women, the press and Hillary.

Politically incorrect equals lack of manners equals cultural rot.
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Old 02-19-2017, 05:00 PM
 
62,697 posts, read 28,894,374 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Bully View Post
So the good and the bad cannot be separated, one couldn't have existed without the other, is what you're saying. I think you're wrong, or at least hope so, and you ought to hope so too. And if you assume that people who long for the good things they remember from those days are also longing for those bad things to return I'd say you're wrong about that too.

That's what I have been saying all along but victims want to hang on to their victim cards so they only see the bad things.
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Old 02-19-2017, 05:34 PM
 
72,855 posts, read 62,315,573 times
Reputation: 21799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlow View Post
I guess what I'm saying is that when we look back at the "olden days," we tend to do so with rose-colored glasses. Things were undoubtedly simpler in the 50's (I was born in the early 60's), but they were not idyllic. And life could be extremely harsh for people of color and women. I have fond memories of hanging out in the neighborhood with my friends, but I wasn't a black person wanting to sit at a lunch counter in Alabama.

I think that the OP is superficial and short-sighted. Of course, we could all use a dose of civility, but I don't think things are necessarily less civil than they used to be. Black people were getting set upon by dogs and blasted with water hoses with the support of their highest state officials for trying to integrate schools. I know you've seen the videos of people shouting horrible things at little black children walking up the school house steps. That was not civil behavior.

Another example the OP notes is that unwed mothers don't have any shame. There were unwed pregnant women in the 50's and many were so ashamed that they had back alley abortions, or were spirited away and forced to give up their children. My mother had two sisters who never had children and she told me it was because they both had botched abortions when they were young. I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is true, I don't think that the shame they felt, which led to an illegal abortion, should be seen as a positive.

The title of the OP is "Cultural rot is our biggest problem." But I don't think that's true. I think our biggest problem is that most of us born in the 50's and 60's grew up in a time of unprecedented growth and wealth, spawned by WWII. There was a feeling that it would never end, but of course it had to. Growth takes resources and the U.S. started sucking up resources at an alarming rate. Because many of the resources are finite (coal, steel, fish, lumber all come to mind), once they're gone, they're gone. We've lost the backbone of the production economy on which the middle class was based and I don't see how we're going to get it back. An inability to get ahead despite one's best efforts leads to despair, which leads to drug addiction, teen pregnancies, abandoned families, and short-term thinking.

Probably more answer than you were wanting.
One is more likely to look at the "olden days" with rose-colored glasses when we see alot of bad around us in the present. If bad didn't happen to you in those days, it is easy to look at things with rose colored glasses. Personally, I have never lived in the 1950s. I just know what family members tell me. I known what the history books and archives mention.

One thing about the 1950s is the element of discretion. Alot of bad things were simply not put on television. One could easier hide the uglier things in society. If you were the one being subjected to bad things, such as what you mention, you just had to put up with it.

Unwed pregnant women has been something that has been with us since before the 1950s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Scoop_Era

One thing about a TV show like Leave It To Beaver, no one mentions unwed mothers. It wasn't suppose to exist. Same with Father Knows Best.

The last paragraph is something I want to discuss. After the Great Depression and WWII, the era of 1946-1963 was considered that "blissful" period. Compared to the two decades before, yes. The USA saw a growth spurt during the 1950s. It is also important to consider that other nations, like South Korea, Germany, Japan, they were trying to come out of the ashes of wars. The USA basically had no competitors in the world during the 50s. We were getting coal and producing steel like there was no tomorrow. It wasn't thought of that said coal was finite. More fish can be produced. However, with rivers and lakes getting so much pollution, many fish got killed off in some places.

And technology in the 1950s isn't the same as today. There are more pollution controls in place. The way steel is produced, it requires more brain power today, than back in the 1950s.

A few other things about the 1950s. Before the Cuyahoga River in Cleveland got famous for catching on fire, it went on fire in the 1950s as well, and several times in earlier decades. Pittsburgh used to have pollution thick enough to block out the sun. This was until around the mid 20th century.
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Old 02-19-2017, 05:43 PM
 
72,855 posts, read 62,315,573 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gordo View Post
To me a lot of this is caused by a lack of manners. Just look at Trump and his lack of manners, like the way he's talked about women, the press and Hillary.

Politically incorrect equals lack of manners equals cultural rot.
And cultural rot has been going on in the 1950s as well. There were newspaper articles where men said that grown women should get spankings. There are clips of Ricky Ricardo spanking Lucy on I Love Lucy.

And consider this. Racial slurs galore in the 1950s. Many people like to say "I'm not fond of political correctness". However, when I hear that, I often think "said persons just want it to be permissible to be crass and vulgar".

We've had "cultural rot" going on going back before the 1950s. President Trump is just the latest manifestation of it.
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Old 02-19-2017, 05:55 PM
 
11,989 posts, read 5,261,667 times
Reputation: 7284
People fondly remember the '50's and '60's because most of them were kids at the time. They're fondly remembering the era of their childhood. In retrospect, they think it's superior, but they're viewing it through their childhood prism. If they could go back through a time portal and relive that time as an adult, my guess is that it would be different than they remembered it.
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Old 02-19-2017, 05:59 PM
 
72,855 posts, read 62,315,573 times
Reputation: 21799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bureaucat View Post
People fondly remember the '50's and '60's because most of them were kids at the time. They're fondly remembering the era of their childhood. In retrospect, they think it's superior, but they're viewing it through their childhood prism. If they could go back through a time portal and relive that time as an adult, my guess is that it would be different than they remembered it.
Being a kid is different from being an adult. I have fond memories of the 1990s, as a kid. In particular, the mid 1990s. However, at 30 years old, I enjoy the decade I'm currently living in. I could live in the 90s as an adult, but it would likely be different from being a kid.
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