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Now see - this is an honest response and you're someone I feel I could have a rational discussion with. Thanks for your tone and for your honesty.
Do you think there is a middle ground where we could meet? Perhaps legalizing abortions for a variety of reasons (rape, incest, danger to the life of the mother, malformed fetus, that sort of thing)?
I'm not opposed to ALL abortion and I think that I am joined by many people who are pro life in this regard.
The thing is, and this is what's so heartbreaking to so many people who are pro life, when one believes that human life begins at conception, then every aborted fetus is a human life destroyed. Now - as a society, is this destruction sometimes necessary for the wellbeing of others? Sadly - yes. Should it ever be treated casually or should any government - protected (and sometimes sponsored) death be something we just ignore or pretend isn't happening?
See, I am consistent. I believe that the death penalty is so open to abuse and discrimination that I don't feel comfortable allowing our government (as it is at present) administering it. Same with wars - sometimes wars are unfortunately necessary but I doubt they're as necessary as governments make them out to be. Same with abortion - since I do consider every aborted fetus to be a person who is murdered, I do expect more protection to be offered these most vulnerable US citizens - not LESS.
I'm being honest and trying to honestly get this point across to people - there has been absolutely zero proof offered on this forum or by science, that a human fetus is not fully human. In fact the law seems to be so capricious - the fetus IS a person if the parent(s) want it to be, and it isn't if the parent(s) don't want it to be. Cause a miscarriage? You can be charged with manslaughter. Your unborn fetus has inheritance rights. A mother can be charged with child abuse by taking drugs before delivery. And yet, just change the desires of the parents, and these same babies can be aborted and their bodies thrown into an incinerator with the rest of the trash.
It's so inconsistent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
I believe that we can reach a good middle ground and I for one would never advocate for all abortions to be illegal. Not ever. I find that idea to be abhorrent as well.
Sure laws restricting abortions to some certain conditions would be abused but it would be a start. The other alternative is simply no controls whatsoever, resulting in hundreds of thousands of innocent lives being thrown away, most NOT due to rape, incest, danger to the mother, etc.
It's horrific. It's a holocaust and it's sanctioned by our government. That's the honest opinion of many pro life proponents. Our position doesn't stem from hate. It doesn't stem from restricting the rights of women, or wanting women to be mistreated or punished. It stems directly from our sincere belief that human life begins at conception. So can you imagine our ongoing horror at this situation?
I want people to quit demonizing the other side. It doesn't help anything or anyone.
I don't think a middle ground is possible. I agree with FinsterRufus and I think that one cannot truly be pro-life about only SOME circumstances. If you believe a fetus is a person, then a fetus conceived by rape is as much of a person as one not. What you're really giving that rape victim is a choice - so why then should others be denied a choice?
I see what you're saying but IMO it can't work, and there is no middle ground. Abortions needs to be all or nothing. I'd much rather it be all. You seem to actually be in the same camp as me - don't like it for some circumstances, know it needs to exist for others. You CAN be pro-choice but morally dislike the idea of abortion. It's entirely possible. I am. Maybe this view, too, is inconsistent, because it still values one fetus's life over another, but at least it doesn't deny anyone a choice no matter the circumstance. I'm content with my view on it.
As a side note, feticide laws bother me when we also have legalized abortion. I know it's because there's unfortunately a difference between an unwanted baby and a wanted baby, and it does come down to choice, but it bothers me that we have these double standards. So a fetus is a person that one can be charged with killing when the mother wants it, but not when she doesn't and she makes the choice to kill it herself? Pro-life or pro-choice, I don't see how one can deny this bizarre inconsistency we have created. Then again, if I were pregnant and God forbid someone intentionally killed my unborn child that I very much wanted, I would want that person charged, too.
Unfortunately IMHO abortion is just one of those things that needs to be legal. I don't think there is a sustainable middle ground denying the right to only some but not others, and I absolutely don't believe in denying a rape victim or the mother of a severely handicapped baby her right to end the pregnancy. So to me, the logical choice, is just legalizing it for all and being happier with the alternative that there AREN'T more unwanted babies in this world that are often taken care of, in whole or in part, by the government and/or taxpayers.
I'm realistic. Personally I believe that all unborn babies are fully human. However, I am willing to compromise in order to cut down on the number of abortions. I don't see any willingness to compromise from many people.
What are you willing to compromise? It's not like you're going to face that decision anytime soon. You're willing to compromise your ideals. That's not other people's reality.
Choosing which women can have an abortion based on your opinion of the right circumstance is not magnanimous - basically you're dictating that the pregnancies that fall outside that criteria must be carried to term, because you said so.
I don't think a middle ground is possible. I agree with FinsterRufus and I think that one cannot truly be pro-life about only SOME circumstances. If you believe a fetus is a person, then a fetus conceived by rape is as much of a person as one not. What you're really giving that rape victim is a choice - so why then should others be denied a choice?
I see what you're saying but IMO it can't work, and there is no middle ground. Abortions needs to be all or nothing. I'd much rather it be all. You seem to actually be in the same camp as me - don't like it for some circumstances, know it needs to exist for others. You CAN be pro-choice but morally dislike the idea of abortion. It's entirely possible. I am. Maybe this view, too, is inconsistent, because it still values one fetus's life over another, but at least it doesn't deny anyone a choice no matter the circumstance. I'm content with my view on it.
As a side note, feticide laws bother me when we also have legalized abortion. I know it's because there's unfortunately a difference between an unwanted baby and a wanted baby, and it does come down to choice, but it bothers me that we have these double standards. So a fetus is a person that one can be charged with killing when the mother wants it, but not when she doesn't and she makes the choice to kill it herself? Pro-life or pro-choice, I don't see how one can deny this bizarre inconsistency we have created. Then again, if I were pregnant and God forbid someone intentionally killed my unborn child that I very much wanted, I would want that person charged, too.
Unfortunately IMHO abortion is just one of those things that needs to be legal. I don't think there is a sustainable middle ground denying the right to only some but not others, and I absolutely don't believe in denying a rape victim or the mother of a severely handicapped baby her right to end the pregnancy. So to me, the logical choice, is just legalizing it for all and being happier with the alternative that there AREN'T more unwanted babies in this world that are often taken care of, in whole or in part, by the government and/or taxpayers.
I'm realistic. Personally I believe that all unborn babies are fully human. However, I am willing to compromise in order to cut down on the number of abortions. I don't see any willingness to compromise from many people.
This is fine and understandable, but again, the issue is actually regulating this. We'd have a lot of "I was raped" just for abortions, when in reality the woman wasn't raped. This sucks for actual rape victims, as well, whose trauma and horrific experience is now being used by others, falsely, just to get an abortion. It doesn't work all around, despite how nice it would be if it COULD work.
It would also skew stats, if they were still being kept. We would have an uptick in abortions due to rape that would only be explained, rather than actual rape, by the fact that because abortion, along with serious condition of the mother or fetus presumably, will be one exception to the general "no abortion" rule.
If women used to use coat hangers on themselves they will sure as hell go to a clinic and claim they were raped, and again - who is to tell them otherwise, that they weren't? How would this be regulated? It's just not possible.
I'm realistic. Personally I believe that all unborn babies are fully human. However, I am willing to compromise in order to cut down on the number of abortions. I don't see any willingness to compromise from many people.
unborn babies are human, they are developing to a point where they can live outside the womb, only aided by the help of someone who wants to care and feed for them. that can't be said while in utero, that job is up to the woman who is pregnant. no woman in America should be forced to gestate, labor, deliver and either raise a child or give it up for adoption against her own will. most abortions happen in the first trimester, not many happen when the child is almost fully developed and has a shot at life outside the womb we have laws and restrictions now that are common sense.
as asked before, rape and incest, health of mom or or fatal abnormalities are ok for an abortion but not if you had "enjoyable" sex? that seems a bit judgmental. what about the married woman who already has the family she can afford, is taking birth control and it fails?
RvW was based on privacy, women have the right to it. why should we have any say in the reproductive life of Maryjane who we don't know, will never know or support either financially or emotionally?
what about women who are hookers and drug addicts, children born to that life where they are not really wanted, where they learn how to use drugs, sell their bodies. the values they learn of right, wrong and respect for the law is non existent?
all children should be wanted and loved. the only real solution to abortion is sex education and free birth control but a great deal of conservatives see this as an invitation to have sex. that is a problem.
abortion rates are as low as they have been for a long long time.
the other problem with not having easy access to abortion is the fact that desperate women do desperate things, like back alley or self inflicted abortions, they throw themselves down stairs have their boy friends punch them in the stomach. no abortions may be ugly but not as ugly as when they are outlawed.
I don't think a middle ground is possible. I agree with FinsterRufus and I think that one cannot truly be pro-life about only SOME circumstances. If you believe a fetus is a person, then a fetus conceived by rape is as much of a person as one not. What you're really giving that rape victim is a choice - so why then should others be denied a choice?
I see what you're saying but IMO it can't work, and there is no middle ground. Abortions needs to be all or nothing. I'd much rather it be all. You seem to actually be in the same camp as me - don't like it for some circumstances, know it needs to exist for others. You CAN be pro-choice but morally dislike the idea of abortion. It's entirely possible. I am. Maybe this view, too, is inconsistent, because it still values one fetus's life over another, but at least it doesn't deny anyone a choice no matter the circumstance. I'm content with my view on it.
As a side note, feticide laws bother me when we also have legalized abortion. I know it's because there's unfortunately a difference between an unwanted baby and a wanted baby, and it does come down to choice, but it bothers me that we have these double standards. So a fetus is a person that one can be charged with killing when the mother wants it, but not when she doesn't and she makes the choice to kill it herself? Pro-life or pro-choice, I don't see how one can deny this bizarre inconsistency we have created. Then again, if I were pregnant and God forbid someone intentionally killed my unborn child that I very much wanted, I would want that person charged, too.
Unfortunately IMHO abortion is just one of those things that needs to be legal. I don't think there is a sustainable middle ground denying the right to only some but not others, and I absolutely don't believe in denying a rape victim or the mother of a severely handicapped baby her right to end the pregnancy. So to me, the logical choice, is just legalizing it for all and being happier with the alternative that there AREN'T more unwanted babies in this world that are often taken care of, in whole or in part, by the government and/or taxpayers.
Yes. And thank you for acknowledging that to be pro choice isn't to "like" abortion. It's to respect the right of pregnant women to decide for themselves in ALL circumstances, whether they remain pregnant. That's a decision only they can make.
Seems odd that those who believe abortion is murder but would make an exception for rape, or for those under 15, or for incest, or ...
Aren't these embryos as human as those from loving marriages?
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