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In supporting torture, Trump put himself in opposition to Secretary of Defense Mattis, U.S. law, the Army Field Manual on Interrogation, the Geneva Convention, international leaders, countless studies, ... even the Republican leaders of the House and Senate.
The only imaginable reason to do this is to rile up his ignorant base.
Last edited by GotHereQuickAsICould; 01-28-2017 at 08:29 AM..
So what are the alternatives? No enhanced interrogation techniques/torture. You won't get ANYTHING out of them and the attacks will go as planned.
Its a dangerous world out there. People are NUTS. So you have to adapt accordingly
exactly!
actually,to be a prisoner of war, you need to play by the rule. That means doing things such as 1) having a chain of command, 2) wearing a proper uniform or insignia to show the enemy you're a legitimate target, 3) carry arms openly, and 4) obey the rules of war. Failure to do these things endangers the lives of civilians and even among enemy soldiers. It increases the risk of collateral damage or friendly fire incidents because you can't tell who's a legitimate or not.
In my opinion, terrorists like ISIS members should NEVER be treated as prisoners of war.
This said, Trump has already said, He would let General Mattis make the decision because Mattis is the expert. Trump believes Torture does work at least sometimes, (I do too) Only the ignorant would believe it NEVER works.
Trump believes in General Mattis and he will follow Mattis' advice. People should just leave it at that. Trump has the right to express his opinion when he was a civilian just like everybody else. Now, he is the president, he will let His secretary of defense make the decision. Problem solved. End of the story!
So what are the alternatives? No enhanced interrogation techniques/torture. You won't get ANYTHING out of them and the attacks will go as planned.
Its a dangerous world out there. People are NUTS. So you have to adapt accordingly
I agree that people are NUTS. One only has to scan the threads on this forum to realize that.
However, you have been misinformed on this matter. James Bond is a fictional character. Jack Bauer is a character in a Fox TV show.
In real life, countless interrogators have affirmed that torture rarely produces accurate information and puts our own soldiers at greater risk.
WWII interrogators successfully used strategies such as convincing prisoners that they are out of the war and therefore their information is old news. They keep prisoners isolated so that their only social contact is with the interrogator and then lead them into revealing information.
Even our Secretary of Defense, James Mattis, has gone on record that he can get a lot more information with cigarettes and beer.
Last edited by GotHereQuickAsICould; 01-28-2017 at 09:18 AM..
Status:
"“If a thing loves, it is infinite.”"
(set 2 days ago)
Location: Great Britain
27,175 posts, read 13,455,286 times
Reputation: 19472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Enough
You are aware that our enemies do NOT follow the Geneva Convention.
Look up some the REAL torture that OUR service men have endured all the way back WWI including Germany, Japan, North Viet Nam etc.
What seperates us from those you mention is we act with humanity and fight against torture and inhumanity.
I am afraid under International Law and the European Convention on Human Rights which was fully enshrined in to British Law in 1998 including Article 3 – 'Prohibition of Torture' we can not legally torture people or gain information from sources using torture.
The last time British Inteligence stood back and did nothing whilst the US Tortured an individual, there ended up being a Scotland Yard investigation in to MI5 and MI6, with a view to prosecutions. So if you think the British Intelligence and Security Services want to risk that embarrassment again then you are sadly mistaken.
There has been some talk of Britain leaving the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) a seperate organisation to the European Union, and replacing it with a British Bill of Rights and for British Military Forces to be excempt from ECHR but this is all a long way off in the future, and even if we did have a our own Bill of Rights it would no doubt still outlaw torture and also uhold the Right to Life (Article 2). Indeed the US Constitution outlaws Torture, which is why the US has in the past used what were called Black Sites/Jails, Extraordinary Rendition and places such as Guantanamo Bay.
Furthermore the US exempts it's self and it's military forces from most International Law and the International Courts unlike the UK, which adheres to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg (France) and the International Courts in the Hague (Netherlands), so any intelligence gained through torture could end in prosecution and even prison.
Now do you see why the use of torture would present problems for European Countries and other countries throughout the world.
Last edited by Brave New World; 01-28-2017 at 08:35 AM..
Trump believes in General Mattis and he will follow Mattis' advice. People should just leave it at that. Trump has the right to express his opinion when he was a civilian just like everybody else. Now, he is the president, he will let His secretary of defense make the decision. Problem solved. End of the story!
That's not how the Executive Branch works, and certainly not how the military works.
The president sets the moral standard. The president's moral standard is the military's moral standard. The generals will give guidance on tactics and logistics--generals will provide the "can we?" information. They rely on the president for the "should we?" guidance.
Take the Iraq invasion, for instance. The generals were flatly opposed to it. Very unusually, they leaked their opposition, they publicly surfaced their opposition. They even debated against their civilian bosses in press conferences. But in the end, they got in line and saluted...and those who could not--the generals of the "class of Vietnam"--retired.
The president sets the moral tone for the military. The scary part is that the men more moral than the president will be faced with tough choices.
That's not how the Executive Branch works, and certainly not how the military works.
The president sets the moral standard. The president's moral standard is the military's moral standard. The generals will give guidance on tactics and logistics--generals will provide the "can we?" information. They rely on the president for the "should we?" guidance.
Take the Iraq invasion, for instance. The generals were flatly opposed to it. Very unusually, they leaked their opposition, they publicly surfaced their opposition. They even debated against their civilian bosses in press conferences. But in the end, they got in line and saluted...and those who could not--the generals of the "class of Vietnam"--retired.
The president sets the moral tone for the military. The scary part is that the men more moral than the president will be faced with tough choices.
Exactly.
The Commander in Chief leads. The Secretary of Defense follows.
Another maniacal tendency. Everyone decided it doesn't work, except him because he's smarter than generals after all:
"it absolutely works"
I wonder who's willing to go to prison for him for war crimes when it's all said and done
Wrong..Wrong..And Wrong
Water boarding is not torture
If you were a soldier you would know this..Especially if you went through harsh interrogation training
Waterboarding was used successfully on all three terrorists it was used on
It absolutely worked
We don't beat the bottoms of people's feet.. Electroshock them..Cut or disfigure them..Burn them alive..Drop them from buildings..Hang them by their genitals..Or the thousands of other ways humans can torture others
No..We used the publicly published field manual
Absurd
Trump...As an effective leader is deferring to his expert and giving him the authority to prosecute the best way he sees fit to keep us safe
Bring back water boarding..It works
Is effective and relatively safe...Safe being defined as no one in our custody has died from its use
Fully support enhanced interogation techniques
When your universe is lying news organizations one loses all sense of reality and true introspection
We must be the gaurdians of freedom because liberals and non thinkers would have us all blown up and still be welcoming terrorists with open arms
This post..And the many like it are a concerted effort by crazies to allow our country to be destroyed
That's not how the Executive Branch works, and certainly not how the military works.
The president sets the moral standard. The president's moral standard is the military's moral standard. The generals will give guidance on tactics and logistics--generals will provide the "can we?" information. They rely on the president for the "should we?" guidance.
Take the Iraq invasion, for instance. The generals were flatly opposed to it. Very unusually, they leaked their opposition, they publicly surfaced their opposition. They even debated against their civilian bosses in press conferences. But in the end, they got in line and saluted...and those who could not--the generals of the "class of Vietnam"--retired.
The president sets the moral tone for the military. The scary part is that the men more moral than the president will be faced with tough choices.
well, what do you want now?
He already said he would listen to General Mattis. What else do you want?
Trump had the right to express his opinion when he was just a civilian. Now, he is the president, he would follow general Mattis' advice because according to Trump, general Mattis is the expert. Maybe we should just leave it at that. No?
Plus, Civilian control of the military is a doctrine in military and political science that places ultimate responsibility for a country's strategic decision-making in the hands of the civilian political leadership, rather than professional military officers. (traditional American domestic and foreign policy 101)
Trump is not an expert of the military, but he is willing to let the military expert (General Mattis for example) make the decision. I see nothing wrong with it. It is only dangerous if he holds on to his belief and does whatever he desires without working with the military experts.
Last edited by lilyflower3191981; 01-28-2017 at 10:04 AM..
Status:
"“If a thing loves, it is infinite.”"
(set 2 days ago)
Location: Great Britain
27,175 posts, read 13,455,286 times
Reputation: 19472
Quote:
Originally Posted by notmeofficer
Wrong..Wrong..And Wrong
Water boarding is not torture
If you were a soldier you would know this..Especially if you went through harsh interrogation training
Waterboarding was used successfully on all three terrorists it was used on
It absolutely worked
We don't beat the bottoms of people's feet.. Electroshock them..Cut or disfigure them..Burn them alive..Drop them from buildings..Hang them by their genitals..Or the thousands of other ways humans can torture others
No..We used the publicly published field manual
Absurd
Trump...As an effective leader is deferring to his expert and giving him the authority to prosecute the best way he sees fit to keep us safe
Bring back water boarding..It works
Is effective and relatively safe...Safe being defined as no one in our custody has died from its use
Fully support enhanced interogation techniques
When your universe is lying news organizations one loses all sense of reality and true introspection
We must be the gaurdians of freedom because liberals and non thinkers would have us all blown up and still be welcoming terrorists with open arms
This post..And the many like it are a concerted effort by crazies to allow our country to be destroyed
Shun them at every turn
The problem is torure in many parts of the world is seen as -
• Torture is deliberate inhuman treatment causing very serious and cruel suffering.
• Inhuman treatment or punishment causes intense physical and mental suffering.
• Degrading treatment/punishment, arouses in the victim a feeling of fear, anguish and inferiority capable of humiliating and debasing the victim and possibly breaking his or her physical or moral resistance.
This includes waterboarding and the European Court of Human Rights has even declared the following illegal - ‘wallstanding’, ‘hooding’, continuous loud noise, sleep deprivation and deprivation of food and drink.
International Law and the International Courts also take a similar view.
Americans might think what does this have to do with us torturing or waterboarding people, to which the answer is people can not be extradited from European and other countries to countries that use torture including terrorist suspects, which under such circumstances would include the US.
This could mean it becomes very difficult to extradite terrorist suspects from the 47 European Countries who are signatories to the European Convention on Human Rights as well as other countries who adhere to International Law, it would also mean that intelligence which could result in an individual being tortured could not be passsed on to the US intelligence services.
Currently the US can not execute anyone who they extradite from the 47 ECHR Countries (Article 2 - The Right to Life), no matter what the circumstances are and there is also a block on exports relating to US Capital Punishment meaning any chemicals or drugs used in the death penalty can not be exported to the US from Europe. This has caused problems, and the US has had to cancel executions and look at new methods and drugs to use in relation to lethal injections.
To have a similar ban on relation to the exchange of intelligence would be in no ones interest, which is why the British Prime Minister Theresa May has been having frank discussions with Donald Trump over issues such as Torture and NATO.
It should be noted that only an Act of Parliament could take Britain out of the ECHR but this is very very unlikely to happen, so Britain and indeed the British Government and Intelligence Services must adhere to the European Convention on Human Rights and it's decisions, indeed we have no choice on the matter as it's enshrined in our national laws.
Last edited by Brave New World; 01-28-2017 at 11:56 AM..
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