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They shouldn't. Neither party should receive loyalty from the working class.
What about the middle and upper class Blacks? I say this because I'm not working class. I'm middle class. My concerns come from my own perspective as a middle class Black person, who is the product of a white collar, middle class family.
I'm a minority. I was answering the question posed by the OP.
Black Americans for the most part do not vote for candidates based on their stance regarding illegal immigration. Like I and the other black posters stated, blacks are always looked down upon and paid less than other ethnicities, no matter what. So this is just not an issue that is important to us like it is to you. I think this is due to the fact that many whites, especially conservative whites don't seem to understand that black people are very much aware that discrimination in hiring is a "real thing." That we have much lower levels of being hired in all sorts of jobs versus whites. And that the idea that many conservatives have - that unqualified black people are taking jobs of "qualified" whites due to AA is ridiculous considering the fact that blacks are unemployed and underemployed at a much greater rate than whites or hispanics or Asians in this country. A major factor in this has to do with the fact that black people are viewed negatively based solely on skin color.
You have been around this forum a long time. I'm sure you remember the other threads about this topic and the fact that many posters said that illegal immigrants "worked harder" than black people. Regardless of if they are illegal or not, many people, especially those in lower level jobs like you mentioned above, automatically think that blacks are lazy and so they are less likely to hire a black person. This is not some sort of racial whine or debate or anything. It is the truth and it is one that we know that we have to navigate in the workplace and in hiring as blacks in America.
Due to that, we are not as concerned with the idea that illegal immigrants will take jobs from us. So do white people. So do Asian people. So do legal immigrants. So do hispanics.
Our main focus on employment is focused on increasing one's skill set, getting into an "in-demand" field (of which unskilled labor is not a part of) and entrepreneurship. Those are "job" issues that are important to black Americans. Not illegal immigrants taking unskilled jobs.
How do you go about proving black people are unemployed/underemployed due to racial discrimination?
I think your reasoning is flawed because you're looking at the "rate" as if all groups are otherwise the same, concluding that it must be due to race.
Asians are over-represented in medicine, engineering and computer science. Does this mean white people are being discriminated against?
If you aren't raised in a household that cultivates intellectual curiosity, education, and good work ethic you're going to have a difficult time competing for worthwhile jobs.
We aren't living in the 50s. If you can't compete in today's America there's not a lot of hope for you, period.
How do you go about proving black people are unemployed/underemployed due to racial discrimination?
I think your reasoning is flawed because you're looking at the "rate" as if all groups are otherwise the same, concluding that it must be due to race.
Asians are over-represented in medicine, engineering and computer science. Does this mean white people are being discriminated against?
If you aren't raised in a household that cultivates intellectual curiosity, education, and good work ethic you're going to have a difficult time competing for worthwhile jobs.
We aren't living in the 50s. If you can't compete in today's America there's not a lot of hope for you, period.
I provided a response to why black people don't care about illegals getting hired in low level, unskilled jobs.
My reasoning is based upon my experience of being a black person in America. What I stated has been shared by the other black posters. Employment rates and studies that show that an educated black person has less of a chance getting a job versus a white ex-con are more than enough proof of the fact that lower to mid-level jobs and the people who hire for those jobs, have a tendency to exert a bias towards black Americans.
Regardless of that bias though, those of us who want a job will get a job. It is not about any sort woe-is-me thing. It is something we know and we are told, repeatedly that we need to be better and do better to get the things we want out of life. So illegals taking jobs is just not important to us like it is to white Americans. Simple as that.
On your Asian and white discrimination thing - whites are hired at a much higher level than Asians in every field in the country so what you are stating is a fail in that regard. However, you should admit that Asians actually are discriminated against in executive management and director positions in both non-profits and private sector employment, also based on studies and statistics that show this to be the case. A white man is the most likeliest person in this country to be hired. That is why when you all cry about some black person taking your job due to AA we know you are on some BS.
And I never said that we could not compete or have any "hope" . See above about it being instilled in us by our parents that we have to do better and be better just to get an average life by American standards. We accept this and it is something that we just deal with and keep moving forward. As a demogrpahic, we are also known to have very high rates of determination and resilence, grit basically and due to that, contrary to what you beleive, we don't cry and whine about some low level retail job or chicken factory job, or general labor at a construction site. Of course there is a minority who are just constant complainers but the vast majority of us work at improving our education and moving up at work or being entrepreneurs and illegal immigrants taking those lower level jobs is just not something that we concern ourselves with for the most part. That is stuff white people seem to worry about more than black people.
How do you go about proving black people are unemployed/underemployed due to racial discrimination?
I think your reasoning is flawed because you're looking at the "rate" as if all groups are otherwise the same, concluding that it must be due to race.
Asians are over-represented in medicine, engineering and computer science. Does this mean white people are being discriminated against?
If you aren't raised in a household that cultivates intellectual curiosity, education, and good work ethic you're going to have a difficult time competing for worthwhile jobs.
We aren't living in the 50s. If you can't compete in today's America there's not a lot of hope for you, period.
I also wanted to note on this comment was funny to me considering that I have seen many whites in this era complain about Asians taking their jobs and illegal hispanic immigrants taking their jobs and that black "unqualified AA candidates" are taking their jobs lol.
You should tell the bold to those white people who complain about all the minorities taking their jobs. Minorities, usually don't go around blaming everyone for taking jobs from them. That is a "white thing" to put it in a 1990s slang phrase.
Again, black people are much more concerned today about education than unskilled labor positions. We want our young people to educate themselves and not need to rely on those types of jobs to take care of themselves and their families.
I'm black and I love discussions like this. I have them with family occasionally (quite often recently since the presidential campaign). They now seem much more open to question things then at any other time in the past, which is a huge change in the right direction. I'll take it.
Don't let anyone deter you from asking these kinds of questions. Thanks to the internet I've discovered many other black conservatives/independents I never knew existed. I don't get into identity politics much though because I know government on both sides play the same game underneath it all. However I do believe the democrat party has an easier time exploiting black people because they're pretty much guaranteed their vote without question.
I live in a blue state so you can imagine my opinions on politics aren't very popular and I pretty much keep them to myself. Now more than ever since it seems it's becoming more of a matter of safety (although the media may be causing a bit of paranoia).
I'm a convert. I used to lean left because that's what everybody else did. As I got older I started experiencing a bit of cognitive dissonance. The messages I was hearing versus my life experiences and the positive outcomes that went along with better decision making, weren't adding up. On top of that I started observing other cultures around the world and had an epiphany moment.
I'm a huge fan of Thomas Sowell.
I'm such a fan of Sowell as well, so sad he has retired from writing his columns but after so many years of hard work and such a distingushed career, I guess he deserves a rest . What I really have difficulty understanding (even more than the why most African Americans vote Democrat) as why it seems like the African American community appears to show disdain for other African Americans that exhibit conservative views, even to the point of public name calling. It just seems to conflict with what African Americans fought for with civil rights.
I'm a minority. I was answering the question posed by the OP.
Black Americans for the most part do not vote for candidates based on their stance regarding illegal immigration. Like I and the other black posters stated, blacks are always looked down upon and paid less than other ethnicities, no matter what. So this is just not an issue that is important to us like it is to you. I think this is due to the fact that many whites, especially conservative whites don't seem to understand that black people are very much aware that discrimination in hiring is a "real thing." That we have much lower levels of being hired in all sorts of jobs versus whites. And that the idea that many conservatives have - that unqualified black people are taking jobs of "qualified" whites due to AA is ridiculous considering the fact that blacks are unemployed and underemployed at a much greater rate than whites or hispanics or Asians in this country. A major factor in this has to do with the fact that black people are viewed negatively based solely on skin color.
You have been around this forum a long time. I'm sure you remember the other threads about this topic and the fact that many posters said that illegal immigrants "worked harder" than black people. Regardless of if they are illegal or not, many people, especially those in lower level jobs like you mentioned above, automatically think that blacks are lazy and so they are less likely to hire a black person. This is not some sort of racial whine or debate or anything. It is the truth and it is one that we know that we have to navigate in the workplace and in hiring as blacks in America.
Due to that, we are not as concerned with the idea that illegal immigrants will take jobs from us. So do white people. So do Asian people. So do legal immigrants. So do hispanics.
Our main focus on employment is focused on increasing one's skill set, getting into an "in-demand" field (of which unskilled labor is not a part of) and entrepreneurship. Those are "job" issues that are important to black Americans. Not illegal immigrants taking unskilled jobs.
I hate to weigh in on this subject, because I think it is near impossible for non-whites to fully understand the challenges and perspective of black folks, impossible really, but I can share an observation or two...
I am inclined because I rarely find myself in a thread with comments from black people, that I can tell anyway, and it's interesting and refreshing to get other than the perspective of older white Christian males. I've also been interested and concerned about race relations for a long time, and I owned an employment agency, so I can speak about some of this after hiring literally thousands of people for general labor type jobs, truck drivers too.
Observation: of the great majority of job applicants who were legal to work, the great majority in the area of my employment office were Hispanics and blacks. Almost all the truck drivers we hired were white, however, and some were black. I guess Hispanics aren't into getting a class A truck driver's license, I don't know, but our drivers were almost all white, some black, yet..., just about all my problems with the truck drivers were with black drivers; one that had a full truck of electronics pulled over in a remote neighborhood, opened up, and all contents stolen. Driver never to be found again. I won't go on with the rest of the examples of problems I had with truck drivers.
Of the general labor hires, Hispanics were far more reliable to show up for the job, on time and on a regular basis. For whatever reasons, black after black applicant would promise the world about showing up for the first day of work. Okay -- hired "but don't let me down please." Not to worry I'm promised, and the next day no show, no call. Over and over...
Why? A good question that I am also sure black folks can answer better than anyone, but I always felt it was born from a lack of faith or hope that a crap job would lead to anything better in the future (though truck drivers make pretty good money in comparison).
I wish I could say my observations and experience were different, but I can't, and unfortunately for an employer like me, once you trust and put your faith in a person of color (black), over and over as I did so many times, and the odds seem to be proving overwhelmingly that the trust and faith will be abused, I don't know how one is to keep from becoming guarded and/or inclined toward Hispanics instead.
There were exceptions of course! Just like the black man who became POTUS and one of the best this country has enjoyed in as long as I have been of voting age. Despite my personal observations, I voted for Obama, because I know that we should NOT let personal experience prejudice us against any group of people in general (and POTUS is no general labor job).
My brother-in-law is also a man I very highly admire, one of the hardest working men I know, also black. An orphan, raised by a Christian white family, and victim of a past drug addiction problem that troubles him (and family) sometimes, but truly a good man. I'm glad to say we are good friends, and I am also glad to say I have had other good black friends in the past.
I had hopes Obama might better address what makes it so difficult for black folks to get a fair shake in life, and/or why black folks have less hope and faith in their own futures such that they do things to insure that self-fulfilling prophesy, but the problems and challenges are so wide-spread and difficult to correct, I think black folks have no choice but to do the best they can despite the odds working against them. What choice is there?
Unfortunately the other choices are drugs and crime, and all too often that is the choice made, for reasons not that hard to understand...
True for them like just about anyone I think, looking to government for any sort of immediate or significant help when it comes to achieving a quality way of life is likely to be less productive than figuring out how best to manage on one's own one way or another.
Another observation or theory I have is as follows...
For Hispanics, that job paying $9.00 per hour is worth more to them than it is to a black person, because for the Hispanic, the job may be allowing immigrant children to access better education, and because they don't expect to live in conditions much better than the crappy conditions they left in Mexico, and because those American dollars earned in America are worth a whole lot more for them and their families back in Mexico where much of that money flows.
"Better bang for the buck" you might say, so Hispanics apply for the work a lot of non-Hispanic Americans are not interested in, and they show up and stick with the job a lot longer than typical non-Hispanic Americans are willing. Non-Hispanic Americans figure they can and should get better work at higher pay, and as compared to Hispanics, they generally do, as clearly shown by all the labor statistics.
I might be wrong about all this, but after talking with so many people living these realities, I really don't think I'm too far off...
If you aren't raised in a household that cultivates intellectual curiosity, education, and good work ethic you're going to have a difficult time competing for worthwhile jobs.
Very true. How we are raised, our upbringing makes all the difference, along with a few other important attributes like health, but you can't legislate better families, better fathers and mothers...
How do you address the number of kids being raised in environments that set them up to fail? Parents not worth a damn if there are any parents at all, drug problems, crime, no positive influences, too much idle time on the streets, exposure to gangs. My white kids had NONE of these issues as they attended a high school in a safe affluent area ranked a 10 in terms of quality education and percentage of graduates who went on to college (98%).
Damn if I know for sure how to fix these sorts of disparities, but sure seems to me that access to affordable quality education is as good a start as any, also childcare, health care, safer neighborhoods...
I also wanted to note on this comment was funny to me considering that I have seen many whites in this era complain about Asians taking their jobs and illegal hispanic immigrants taking their jobs and that black "unqualified AA candidates" are taking their jobs lol.
You should tell the bold to those white people who complain about all the minorities taking their jobs. Minorities, usually don't go around blaming everyone for taking jobs from them. That is a "white thing" to put it in a 1990s slang phrase.
Again, black people are much more concerned today about education than unskilled labor positions. We want our young people to educate themselves and not need to rely on those types of jobs to take care of themselves and their families.
Exactly. The focus of Black Americans people is on education and higher positions, thus the scores of college-educated individuals of said ethnicity. Further, even when it comes to black immigrants, they are also far more concerned with education than unskilled labor positions. Black immigrants tend to be educated and driven and therefore do not compete with as many non-black Hispanic immigrants, who tend to work unskilled labor jobs more than other immigrant groups.
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. See above about it being instilled in us by our parents that we have to do better and be better just to get an average life by American standards. We accept this and it is something that we just deal with and keep moving forward. As a demogrpahic, we are also known to have very high rates of determination and resilence, grit basically and due to that, contrary to what you beleive, we don't cry and whine about some low level retail job or chicken factory job, or general labor at a construction site. Of course there is a minority who are just constant complainers but the vast majority of us work at improving our education and moving up at work or being entrepreneurs and illegal immigrants taking those lower level jobs is just not something that we concern ourselves with for the most part. That is stuff white people seem to worry about more than black people.
. What I really have difficulty understanding (even more than the why most African Americans vote Democrat) as why it seems like the African American community appears to show disdain for other African Americans that exhibit conservative views, even to the point of public name calling. It just seems to conflict with what African Americans fought for with civil rights.
