Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I don't think ANY students should be forced to get naked and shower in open stalls in front of each other, forget about a trans kid here and there. How awful.
Even if they skip the shower, or rinse off while still wearing their swimsuits, how do you suggest they change into and out of their swimsuits in the open locker room without getting naked?
I'll lay out another issue nobody likes to talk about, listening to the voice that's telling you when something isn't right. This is the voice most people hear in many situations, including when they see someone who is obviously one gender not only trying to look like the other gender but taking it into private spaces. Yes, everyone notices that and even the most open minded of people do a little flip in their minds because it's not a natural thing no matter how much we don't want to care about it. This isn't going away, it's hardwired into us for a reason. It's there to keep us safe. Asking everyone to ignore that isn't smart and I think the burden of this must lay at the feet of those who fall outside the norm. That's not me being mean, that's me being realistic. Nobody should accept being treated poorly, but nobody get's to tell others not to feel a particular way for their own benefit either. And it can't be legislated away.
Lets say for arguments sake there are 20 girls who do shower after gym, because they are hard workers and like to be clean afterwards. Yes they are a bit uncomfortable showering in front of their other girl friends but choose to do so anyway because of their desire for hygiene. Now a trans boy is allowed to use the girl's facilities.
What should they do? Deal with it or don't shower? Is that your position?
Is it your contention that the one trans person's feelings is more valid than the feelings of the 20 girls who are now having a biological male forced into their shower area?
They'll never answer that question. It's always all about the trans. That's the only person who ever matters.
Who said anything about a requirement that an anatomical male who "feels" like a female has to dress and look like one? There simply is no such requirement. Read the example in the Time Magazine article I linked.
You're really pushing an agenda and calling others bigoted, so why would you ASSUME someone who's claiming to be transgender would dress or look like the gender they "claim" to be? Wouldn't that make you a bigot for assuming all transgenders are the same?
Where did I say there was a requirement? No requirement, but definitely far more common than a trans woman who would still retain basically everything about being male while identifying as a female and using all female facilities.
I am not assuming all trans people are the same. But most trans people probably look, act, and/or sound like the gender they identify with. Of course not all, but most.
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltergulick
Lets say for arguments sake there are 20 girls who do shower after gym, because they are hard workers and like to be clean afterwards. Yes they are a bit uncomfortable showering in front of their other girl friends but choose to do so anyway because of their desire for hygiene. Now a trans boy is allowed to use the girl's facilities.
What should they do? Deal with it or don't shower? Is that your position?
Is it your contention that the one trans person's feelings is more valid than the feelings of the 20 girls who are now having a biological male forced into their shower area?
One, it's rare for schools to still have open showers for students (and for students, especially girls, to want to use them) and it's rare for students to utilize school showers at all. I have a hard time with your hypo knowing it's not based in reality. Two, the trans person would not be a trans boy but a trans woman or girl, and she most likely would act and look like a girl save the genital area. And she even may be friends with some of the girls in the locker room, who would be cool with her presence there...
It's a tough situation. It depends on whether the trans woman would also be using the showers, at the same time, and how much she would be exposing herself if so, and how comfortable each girl is with her presence there. Some students who do shower in school do so in underwear, perhaps she would, as well, or maybe the other girls would be, too. There is no easy answer because there would be too many factors at play and too many other questions to ask.
I don't think anyone's feelings matter more than anyone else's. The 20 girls' feelings certainly don't matter more than the trans woman's, if that's what you're insinuating you think. Minorities are protected in the US for a reason and it's because if the majority had it their way, nothing good would ever happen for minorities in their best interests/they would never get what they want, too. Despite people who think we don't have to "bend over backwards" for minorities... in a way we do (but I wouldn't put it so negatively). We always have, we always will.
If it really were to come down to it, it would be best that no one showers, yeah, it really would. Not even considering the presence of a trans person, I think it's rather inhumane to have the only available showers be completely open ones. Schools should have privacy curtains, at least, if they insist their students shower. Why do you think prison showers are in the open? It's not a comfortable experience.
My opinion on the whole issue is based on the fact that most schools don't require students to shower and if they do, many have phased out the open public showers. Most schools today have locker rooms where kids change for gym class, then change again and go onto their next class. The days of showering in school are behind us for the most part. I hadn't thought about a situation with 20 naked teenage girls showering in open showers plus one naked trans girl also in the room, because that doesn't really happen anymore.
They'll never answer that question. It's always all about the trans. That's the only person who ever matters.
I answered the question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent
Yes, it is true. Just one example:
ARIZONA
13-1402. Indecent exposure; classifications
A. A person commits indecent exposure if he or she exposes his or her genitals or anus or she exposes the areola or nipple of her breast or breasts and another person is present, and the defendant is reckless about whether the other person, as a reasonable person, would be offended or alarmed by the act.
B. Indecent exposure does not include an act of breast-feeding by a mother. C. Indecent exposure to a person who is fifteen or more years of age is a class 1 misdemeanor. Indecent exposure to a person who is under fifteen years of age is a class 6 felony.
No, it is not true.
"Reckless" is a term indicating intent (so not a strict liability crime, so the mere presence of a male exposed in front of a minor is not enough), and the person would need to fit the definition of being reckless. To act recklessly under the Model Penal Code for example, is to "consciously disregard a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the material element exists or will result from his conduct. The risk must be of such a nature and degree that, considering the nature and purpose of the actor's conduct and the circumstances known to him, its disregard involves a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a law-abiding person would observe in the actor's situation."
Someone who is allowed to use a locker room would probably not be considered "reckless" in getting naked inside it. A trans person removing his or her clothes in a locker room is not a "gross deviation from the standard of conduct" that one would expect in a locker room, in a state where the law allows trans people to use the facilities they wish, if the law allows it or otherwise a private business has allowed it and customers are aware. There would need to be something much more going on for a trans woman to be arrested for indecent exposure in a locker room.
By your own logic with that statute you provided, a woman who is naked in a locker room could be arrested for indecent exposure. See how absurd that is when it's NOT about a trans person?
I am a law student. You don't want to challenge me on interpreting a criminal statute.
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent
Even if they skip the shower, or rinse off while still wearing their swimsuits, how do you suggest they change into and out of their swimsuits in the open locker room without getting naked?
Again, I am 100% against any students having to get totally naked in the open, period. I'm against forcing kids to participate in swimming, against forcing them to shower in the open, against forcing them to completely strip.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,604,784 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceece
I'll lay out another issue nobody likes to talk about, listening to the voice that's telling you when something isn't right. This is the voice most people hear in many situations, including when they see someone who is obviously one gender not only trying to look like the other gender but taking it into private spaces. Yes, everyone notices that and even the most open minded of people do a little flip in their minds because it's not a natural thing no matter how much we don't want to care about it. This isn't going away, it's hardwired into us for a reason. It's there to keep us safe. Asking everyone to ignore that isn't smart and I think the burden of this must lay at the feet of those who fall outside the norm. That's not me being mean, that's me being realistic. Nobody should accept being treated poorly, but nobody get's to tell others not to feel a particular way for their own benefit either. And it can't be legislated away.
Civilized people are moving beyond this BS instinct to hate those different from you. The voice in my head that says things aren't right is moments like this when people cheer on discrimination, call them freaks and laugh about it.
Like the incident at that McDonalds in Baltimore where the two cis women started beating up that trans woman and only one person tried to stop it, while the employee filming it on his phone just laughed. That seemed wrong to me, but who knows, with this board, maybe we are supposed to be okay with beating up people who happen to be different
Transgenderism is not about being unable to "decide what gender one wants to be today." It is a genuine feeling that one has been born with the wrong genitalia to match how they feel all the time. I'm not trans so I can't explain it like someone who actually knows can but I know for sure that it's not wishy washy like so many make it seem with comments like that. It is a serious thing to have (or however one wants to word it), partly because of the social stigma perpetuated by people like some right in this thread.
Live and let live is not easy advice for everyone to abide by unfortunately. Trans people aren't hurting anyone, nor do they want to (despite people who will inexplicably claim otherwise). The vast majority if not all want to live their lives quietly and in peace, without being noticed or having attention drawn to them. They also want to live comfortably and not be subjected to the wrong locker room or bathroom. Bathrooms have stall doors, last I checked. I fail to see how anyone's privacy is being violated by allowing trans people to use the bathroom of their choice, as so many argue.
The problem is that you think this is only about transgendered people. It's not. I have very little concern that a transgender person would pose any harm to anyone. What I do worry about, is the pedophiles, freaks, and wierdos who will EXPLOIT these laws in order to indulge their perversion, and these transgender protection laws, like the one in Charlotte NC, make it so easy for them to exploit.
Read on where I elaborate further.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415
I don't have to be reminded of anything. It's clear I know more about this issue than the vast majority of often bigoted and ignorant posters in these threads.
There someone goes again with the "little girls" comment (yes I know you actually said "minor"). What do you think will happen? That young biological males who are so sure they are someone else that they, as kids and teens, will go through the hassle of dressing as and identifying as the opposite sex when they know people will make fun of them and be downright cruel, will start molesting the girls? You really think this is a potential issue?
.
Show me where in the Charlotte NC law that it mandated boys dress, present, or otherwise prove in any way whatsoever that they legitimately identify as female before being allowed to use girls facilities? Pro-tip: you can't, because no such language exists in the law. It might be a different story if these laws stipulated that a person must prove within reason that they are in fact transgender, such as a diagnosis from a psychologist or similar, but they don't.
As far as these type of laws are concerned, anyone, at any time, can claim they identify as a member of the opposite sex and on their word alone, that person must be granted access to the facilities of their choice.
That's ridiculous, insane, and RIFE with opportunity for abuse, period.
Trump supporters care more about bathroom laws than the fact that their Messiah is in cahoots with the Russians.
Still better than Hillary Clinton would have been.....
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
No requirement, but definitely far more common than a trans woman who would still retain basically everything about being male while identifying as a female and using all female facilities. 
