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Wrong, pro-life allows you to choose whether you want to parent the child you created or give it over for adoption. Pregnancy limits the freedom of the mother for 9 months or less. Abortion limits the freedom of the unborn child forever.
Let's pretend for a moment that an embryo is a child (which it is not) since when can one persons need for another persons body force them to endure a potentially life threatening process?
If an adult child needs a kidney or they will die and their parent is a match, should they be able to legally force their parent to give them a kidney?
are you saying all life is equal important? a fetus is equally important as the woman who carries it? when the mother's life is in danger, should it just be left up to fate to decide who lives or dies in that situation?
Both lives are important. Again, you argue one is lesser, you are placing a value on life to fit your political position. You are saying the life of a child is lesser than the mother that carries it. That fundamentally dismisses the life of the child and is no different in attitude than those who in the past viewed slaves or women as "lesser" in value.
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Originally Posted by hothulamaui
I support choice both by law and by personal choice. abortion doesn't go away when it's illegal, it just becomes dangerous.
Murder doesn't go away when it is illegal. You have no point here. Your argument now is that because people will do it anyway, it should be legal. Fallacious reasoning that is.
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Originally Posted by hothulamaui
I have no right, nor do you to tell a woman who we don't even know how to govern her own reproduction. people live their lives the way they do because they feel it's right, not because a law tells them to. if that were the case the prisons would be empty. your point in bringing laws other than abortion into the topic?
You are the one placing a value on life and then dismissing its liberties for the sake of another. You are excusing the violation of that life's liberties.
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Originally Posted by hothulamaui
do you have a problem with our right to privacy?
You have no right to privacy when it entails the violation of liberties of another.
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Originally Posted by hothulamaui
if all life is equally important why doesn't the anti choicers out there protest the thousands and thousands of babies left in the deep freeze at fertility clinics?
Let's pretend for a moment that an embryo is a child (which it is not) since when can one persons need for another persons body force them to endure a potentially life threatening process?
Do you believe third trimester abortions should have zero restrictions?
I'm not asking about current laws, nor am I asking if you personally don't like the idea. I am asking if there should be no legal restrictions on third trimester abortions at all.
Both lives are important. Again, you argue one is lesser, you are placing a value on life to fit your political position. You are saying the life of a child is lesser than the mother that carries it. That fundamentally dismisses the life of the child and is no different in attitude than those who in the past viewed slaves or women as "lesser" in value.
Murder doesn't go away when it is illegal. You have no point here. Your argument now is that because people will do it anyway, it should be legal. Fallacious reasoning that is.
You are the one placing a value on life and then dismissing its liberties for the sake of another. You are excusing the violation of that life's liberties.
You have no right to privacy when it entails the violation of liberties of another.
I can't speak for them, why don't you ask them?
So since we have thrown out the notion of body autonomy, you would be ok with adult children legally forcing their parents to donate organs to them right?
Do you believe third trimester abortions should have zero restrictions?
I'm not asking about current laws, nor am I asking if you personally don't like the idea. I am asking if there should be no legal restrictions on third trimester abortions at all.
Having met a woman who got a third trimester abortion because of a congenial defect that was causing her child (she was well past viability) pain and risked her ability to have another child and potentially her life, I will leave those decisions to a medical provider and their patients. So no.
Likewise can you please answer my question? If an embryo is entitled to some sort of right to its mothers body why does that end at birth? Should adult children be able to legally force their parents to donate organs!
Having met a woman who got a third trimester abortion because of a congenial defect that was causing her child (she was well past viability) pain and risked her ability to have another child and potentially her life, I will leave those decisions to a medical provider and their patients. So no.
Likewise can you please answer my question? If an embryo is entitled to some sort of right to its mothers body why does that end at birth? Should adult children be able to legally force their parents to donate organs!
Anybody who wants zero restrictions on third trimester abortions is an extremist, and you can't reason with extremists.
You've made your stance that it's not a baby until the umbilical cord is cut. You're not much different than those who say it's a human at conception.
Anybody who wants zero restrictions on third trimester abortions is an extremist, and you can't reason with extremists.
You've made your stance that it's not a baby until the umbilical cord is cut. You're not much different than those who say it's a human at conception.
There is no point in us debating.
I'll save my time for moderate people.
You have completely misrepresented what I said, and then used that to ignore my very reasonable question.
I believe viability to be the point of personhood. I also don't think my beliefs should decide when another person can have an abortion. Those are two different things. But, let's be how st, you can't answer my question because it shows that body autonomy trumps personhood, even in the case of actual living breathing people.
Basically, here is the argument: Since, by causing an embryo to exist, you created a need where there was no need before. Specifically, before coming into existence, the embryo had no needs; however, now, as a result of coming into existence, it needs to use your body to survive (and for nourishment). Thus, you should be forced to take responsibility for your actions by helping the embryo out--specifically by letting this embryo continue to use your body in order to survive and to acquire nourishment.
How exactly would you respond to this pro-life argument? Basically, while I myself previously looked at both abortion and child support from the perspective of tort law (indeed, I still consider child support to be government-sanctioned swindling if there was a prior agreement *not* to seek child support), I have to admit that that I didn't place as much emphasis on the *need* aspect of the equation before.
Anyway, any thoughts on this?
Assuming most human children are dependent on a parent for some time after birth. Also assuming fathers are often forced to support children, while mothers can get welfare. Should a father be able to "abort" his unwanted embryo through age 7 to 12?
What is created at the instant of conception is a separate human being, with it's own genome. It will be largely dependent on others for 12-18 years. Are these humans abortable until they get a job? Dependence on others, should not disqualify a human from living.
are you saying all life is equal important? a fetus is equally important as the woman who carries it? when the mother's life is in danger, should it just be left up to fate to decide who lives or dies in that situation?
I support choice both by law and by personal choice. abortion doesn't go away when it's illegal, it just becomes dangerous. I have no right, nor do you to tell a woman who we don't even know how to govern her own reproduction. people live their lives the way they do because they feel it's right, not because a law tells them to. if that were the case the prisons would be empty. your point in bringing laws other than abortion into the topic?
do you have a problem with our right to privacy?
if all life is equally important why doesn't the anti choicers out there protest the thousands and thousands of babies left in the deep freeze at fertility clinics?
Pro-lifers avoid the subject of IVF and frozen embryos like the plague, don't they?
When there isn't a woman attached that they can subjugate and punish, all of their concern for unborn "babies" ceases to exist.
Assuming most human children are dependent on a parent for some time after birth. Also assuming fathers are often forced to support children, while mothers can get welfare. Should a father be able to "abort" his unwanted embryo through age 7 to 12?
There is a difference between body autonomy and financial autonomy, he standard for the former is much more strict than the latter.
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What is created at the instant of conception is a separate human being, with it's own genome. It will be largely dependent on others for 12-18 years. Are these humans abortable until they get a job? Dependence on others, should not disqualify a human from living.
So since you believe life begins as conception you are against all forms of hormonal birth control and methods like iuds right?
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