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Old 02-28-2017, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
2,940 posts, read 1,800,052 times
Reputation: 1940

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CentralCarmel View Post
Automation will take more jobs away from working class Americans than all the immigrants the world could throw at us. Automation will take jobs away from white collar workers in STEM fields as well. Very few of us working today are safe from automation and robots. It's coming, and it won't be stopped.


UBI will be a necessity in order to preserve a functioning society. The automators and the technocrat class will be heavily taxed, and they will gladly pay it as a part of a larger social contract. If they refuse to pay a sufficient price as part of that social contract, there are only two options: mass, forced extinction of the less productive portions of human society, or endless bloody revolt. What conservatives fail to realize when railing against social safety nets, UBI, ect, is that if you start starving people, they will simply take what they want and need by force. And those who are starving will soon (if they don't already) outnumber those who aren't, and those who are in place to protect them. There will be nowhere safe, nowhere to hide. Either you pay up, or get strung up.


Retraining current workers is already becoming a pipe dream. There are differing limits to human intelligence. Not everyone can be retrained into a worker who's in the top 5% of STEM fields (the few who can't be automated away). Pulling oneself up by bootstraps will not be possible, as there will be no bootstraps.


In other words, buckle up. It's going to be a bumpy ride, and we're just getting started down this path.
Cannot rep you enough.

For those who actually took a course in the philosophy of economics like I did and/or received enough education to realize the fundamental problem in a capitalist/market driven society: capitalism requires regulation and control, or say good bye to society as we know it.

That liberal education doing good for us all ain't it?

I'm part of this technocrat class, helping make lower skilled people worthless in the market as an electrical engineer. Have fun folks. Get that education or be automated.
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Old 02-28-2017, 10:56 AM
 
5,722 posts, read 5,777,934 times
Reputation: 4381
Quote:
Originally Posted by man4857 View Post
You think limiting immigration will help. Millions of service sector jobs currently worked by our own citizens are going to be automated very soon.

Even if you reduce immigration to 0 and close our borders. Then what, we still have millions unemployed who are unskilled workers. This is a worldwide problem, not just ours.

Your short term thinking always blows my mind. It's not an effective solution.
If low skilled jobs are being done away with why would we take in more uneducated illegals when there's LESS jobs for them and low skilled Americans both.


We haven't seen one logical answer to this question yet that would hold water in a debate.
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Old 02-28-2017, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
2,940 posts, read 1,800,052 times
Reputation: 1940
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderlust76 View Post
If low skilled jobs are being done away with why would we take in more uneducated illegals when there's LESS jobs for them and low skilled Americans both.


We haven't seen one logical answer to this question yet that would hold water in a debate.
I posted a possible solution earlier: national initiatives like the space program, medical research, infrastructure, etc...

You do realize that the problem of immigration is attempting to take cough medicine for a cancer that's spreading right? You're not solving the problem, only attempting to suppress it.

We need to solve it and be innovative to get to the root of the problem. This can be done a variety of different ways:
1) Create Jobs
- Government initiative massive jobs program (Requires some interesting innovation)
- Investing/forced renewable energy conversion, easily creates jobs. Change to 100% sustainable energy.

2) Retrain Workers
- Free education, educate as many and as much people as possible

3) Slow down rate of progress (how much work gets done in x time)
- Readjust the standard work week to < 40 hours a week
- Outlaw overtime
- Adjust rate of pay to fit this new definition of a work week
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Old 02-28-2017, 11:09 AM
 
Location: East Side, Indianapolis
192 posts, read 240,729 times
Reputation: 276
Quote:
Originally Posted by man4857 View Post
Cannot rep you enough.

For those who actually took a course in the philosophy of economics like I did and/or received enough education to realize the fundamental problem in a capitalist/market driven society: capitalism requires regulation and control, or say good bye to society as we know it.

That liberal education doing good for us all ain't it?

I'm part of this technocrat class, helping make lower skilled people worthless in the market as an electrical engineer. Have fun folks. Get that education or be automated.
Same here. My friends and I have a rough running tally of the number of jobs that we've automated over the years, and the numbers are starting to get large, with the growth curve looking like a hockey stick lately.


BUT, we're also cognizant of the social costs of what we do and the necessity for social safety nets to provide for those who are made obsolete by technology. We also know that one day we could be automated once AI comes far enough along...we're all under some level of threat. We're fast approaching the time when scarcity is no longer a thing, and we need to begin to wrap our heads around that concept.
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Old 02-28-2017, 11:09 AM
 
5,722 posts, read 5,777,934 times
Reputation: 4381
Quote:
Originally Posted by man4857 View Post
I posted a possible solution earlier: national initiatives like the space program, medical research, infrastructure, etc...

You do realize that the problem of immigration is attempting to take cough medicine for a cancer that's spreading right? You're not solving the problem, only attempting to suppress it.

We need to solve it and be innovative to get to the root of the problem. This can be done a variety of different ways:
1) Create Jobs
- Government initiative massive jobs program (Requires some interesting innovation)
- Investing/forced renewable energy conversion, easily creates jobs. Change to 100% sustainable energy.

2) Retrain Workers
- Free education, educate as many and as much people as possible

3) Slow down rate of progress (how much work gets done in x time)
- Readjust the standard work week to < 40 hours a week
- Outlaw overtime
- Adjust rate of pay to fit this new definition of a work week
This would all have to be implemented for regular Americans first either way as it currently stands the country can't support mass amounts of uneducated illegals. Remember lower skilled jobs are being done away with due to automation. You don't get to cherry pick how this effects the country. It effects illegal immigrants massively.

The Democrats have backed themselves into a corner they can't justify open borders and sanctuary cities at this point because the jobs aren't there and the country can't afford to support them all.

Americans come first, not illegals. We can't even get free training for regular citizens you're trying to make the case that it should be free for illegals?
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Old 02-28-2017, 11:13 AM
 
Location: East Side, Indianapolis
192 posts, read 240,729 times
Reputation: 276
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderlust76 View Post
If low skilled jobs are being done away with why would we take in more uneducated illegals when there's LESS jobs for them and low skilled Americans both.


We haven't seen one logical answer to this question yet that would hold water in a debate.
On the surface, no it doesn't make a lot of sense. But immigration and its effect on us as we shed low and somewhat skilled labor (and soon a great deal of highly skilled labor) is little more than a tempest in a teapot. It's not going to be the thing that breaks us. Not even close.
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Old 02-28-2017, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
2,940 posts, read 1,800,052 times
Reputation: 1940
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderlust76 View Post
This would all have to be implemented for regular Americans first either way as it currently stands the country can't support mass amounts of uneducated illegals. Remember lower skilled jobs are being done away with due to automation.

Americans come first, not illegals. We can't even get free training for regular citizens you're trying to make the case that it should be free for illegals?
No one has said giving illegals free stuff. As with any welfare type programs, they rely on proving citizenship. You think California or any other blue state gives away welfare like nothing and says to Mexico, please come? There are limits to everything, however, there are reasonable compromises when one extreme solution cannot be executed efficiently.

But what Democrats want to do by in large is: secure the border (not with a stupid wall, with high tech solutions, infrared, drones, etc..) and grant citizenship for those who are already here.

It makes absolutely no financial sense to deport everyone + build a wall. You think a wall will stop people from coming if they really wanted to?

BUT before you even worry about this illegals problem, worry about changing the GOP's mindset first. This whole "socialism" nonsense. Because until that happens, good luck with getting anything through unless the Democrats has a super majority.
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Old 02-28-2017, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
7,163 posts, read 4,726,136 times
Reputation: 4839
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
There already is.

I refuse to go through self-check-out stands that are all over grocery and building supply stores. If I'm encouraged to do so, I decline, stating that I don't want to put anyone out of work.

I see many others doing the same.
So do I.

You're polite whereas I'm not. One time, I got so ticked off, I left a cart full of stuff by the self checkout area at Home Depot. If they don't have enough cashiers, I'll walk the hell out.

If Walmart has greeters, these stores can have human cashiers.

That's one of the many reasons I love shopping at Sprouts. Plenty of help and no "self checkout ".
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Old 02-28-2017, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
7,163 posts, read 4,726,136 times
Reputation: 4839
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottomobeale View Post
The job of a corporation is to make money. As the price comes down on the kiosks, even a penny an hour is too much. Minimum wage or not, kiosks are coming.
A corporation cannot make money without customers.

Kiosks are coming. I don't have to use them.

There is always going to be somebody providing real service.

A lot of low wage earners consume fast food. Get rid of workers, face decline in sales.
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Old 02-28-2017, 11:26 AM
 
26,694 posts, read 14,481,878 times
Reputation: 8094
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCALMike View Post
Ohh....scary threats from the donor class! Why dont you actually look at the facts instead of threats by vested interests? Wendy's and their lobbyists would rather see an elimination of the minimum wage so lots of $1 an hour jobs can be created and the DC lobbyists can bring in third worlders to fill these jobs. A high minimum wage is good if you dont want America to turn into the third world as you guys claim you dont want to see. As long as you guys push for elimination of worker's rights and minimum wages, you are making America increasingly attractive for immigrants from the third world.
Wouldn't a third world country be able to elevate themselves out of trash status by passing a law requiring high minimum wage in their country?





Sorry, I laugh so hard that I am in tears.
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