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Old 03-26-2017, 08:29 AM
 
7,583 posts, read 4,132,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Wolves In Snow View Post
So after Obamacare explodes, will Trump present the same bill that was just pulled out?
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Old 03-26-2017, 08:58 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,974 posts, read 26,925,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
Obama lied. I've said that for years. Trump lied and fumbled this badly. He said he had a great plan. He didn't have squat. The excuse that this is all a part of his plan is a joke also. It will not work like his supporters are claiming.
It could also be said that he made the grave error of totally believing what some in congress were telling him.
Trump is finding out that this "CEO" job is a whole hell of a lot different from his past gigs. He's dealing with (some) people who are not always willing to deal, not at all willing to compromise and some who are not even willing to tell the truth when asked.

While some of running the country is like a business the biggest difference is he has a board of directors (congress) that are diametrically opposed and some that are willing if not gleeful to send it off into a ditch to get their point across or see the other side fail, unlike a corporation where the board, while divided at times has the same basic goal in mind which is the absolute health and growth of the company and avoid at all costs anything that would hinder it's success and hurt their wallets...
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:00 AM
 
79,907 posts, read 44,021,490 times
Reputation: 17189
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj View Post
It could also be said that he made the grave error of totally believing what some in congress were telling him.
He said he had a great plan. He said he could fix it.
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:04 AM
 
16,376 posts, read 22,415,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariadne22 View Post
...
Not our president, not my president, not anyone's president.
Russia's president? He seems to always takes sides with Russia's interest over the US interests. Maybe he's purposely trying to implode things in the US, as a favor to Russia.
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:04 AM
 
18,986 posts, read 9,029,316 times
Reputation: 14688
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj View Post
It could also be said that he made the grave error of totally believing what some in congress were telling him.
Trump is finding out that this "CEO" job is a whole hell of a lot different from his past gigs. He's dealing with (some) people who are not always willing to deal, not at all willing to compromise and some who are not even willing to tell the truth when asked.

While some of running the country is like a business the biggest difference is he has a board of directors (congress) that are diametrically opposed and some that are willing if not gleeful to send it off into a ditch to get their point across or see the other side fail, unlike a corporation where the board, while divided at times has the same basic goal in mind which is the absolute health and growth of the company and avoid at all costs anything that would hinder it's success and hurt their wallets...
Blah, blah, blah. How about instead of giving excuses as to why he is a failure as president, you address the fact that Trump went all over the country for over a year touting his great plan, one that was "wonderful and would cover all Americans," and it turns out he lied and lied and lied, because he never had a plan?

How about answering that, instead of providing cover for the con man?
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Old 03-26-2017, 10:56 AM
 
29,405 posts, read 9,593,839 times
Reputation: 3441
DAVID BROOKS: When things go bad, they’re going to blame the Republicans.

... But this is not brain science. Who elected him? Working-class voters, people making just above the Medicaid minimum. This bill hammered them.

Who elected him? People 50 to 64. This bill hammered those people. Why not take people who voted for you and reward them? That’s not — that’s like the normal thing to do. And he’s not doing it. And if he repeats the error in tax reform, same outcome.
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Old 03-26-2017, 11:01 AM
 
29,405 posts, read 9,593,839 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
Why after nearing 20 years now are we still in Afghanistan?

Obama had close to zero wins. What were the reasons he didn't prosecute the bankers that broke our laws?
These questions are not related to the topic of this thread, and although I've never been against straying off topic, this may be a little too off topic. Also, I have provided information, opinion, alternative perspective on all these more specific subjects before, and a) you can find more about all this yourself without my help, b) nothing I offer seems to make much difference to people who have already made up their mind about such things, and c) at least get past the "lies, lies, lies" simplicity and you're bound to improve your understanding.

Note, your understanding will improve. Not necessarily your satisfaction with our government system, politics, Congress, Obama, Trump or world affairs...

Last edited by LearnMe; 03-26-2017 at 11:29 AM..
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Old 03-26-2017, 11:03 AM
 
79,907 posts, read 44,021,490 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
These questions are not related to the topic of this thread, and although I've never been against straying off topic, this may be a little too off topic. Also, I have provided information, opinion, alternative perspective on all these more specific subjects before, and a) you can find more about all this yourself without my help, b) nothing I offer seems to make much difference to people who have already made up their mind about such things, and c) at least get past the "lies, lies, lies" simplicity and your bound to improve your understanding.

Note, your understanding will improve. Not necessarily your satisfaction with our government system, politics, Congress, Obama, Trump or world affairs...
I understand perfectly well. It's why the wealth gap increased so much under Obama.
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Old 03-26-2017, 11:17 AM
 
29,405 posts, read 9,593,839 times
Reputation: 3441
Quote:
Originally Posted by NxtGen View Post
The difference is very simple.

Notice none of those rights are inalienable. The rights of those in the US are. I know you may think this a mood point, but the difference is that no man can contest those rights as they have no authority to contest them. The US affirms those rights, recognizing they are above the authority of man (ie God given).

This is very important when you argue the right itself, for in the cases you explain, the state grants this right, and because it is the authority that states such, it can also under its own discretion limit or remove those liberties as it sees necessary. In the US, they can not because it is outside of the states authority.

This means, in the US they can never "legally" ban guns, free speech, religion, etc.. as those rights are above the authority of the state.

Certainly, the state can choose to ignore them and violate them, but it would have no legitimacy in its actions while in the examples of other countries, the state could apply some reason or claim of legitimacy to do such based on some reasoned need. That is, the rights the people "have" are merely granted or provided by the state.

It is a subtle difference, but it is extremely important as it separates the authority of the state, showing that the people do not exist at the service of the state, but rather the state exists at the service of the people and can be abolished, or reformed as the people see fit. This shows you who the real power is as it concerns the state.

Remember, many of these other countries were ruling countries, where the state is the power over the people and its move to recognize "rights" is merely a process of them granting such to the people, again... denoting the true authority being the state, not the people. This is why you see many states remove many basic rights from free speech to arms, to private property. The state grants them their rights.
A little too simple if you ask me, but whatever works for you as they say!

What anyone enjoys as their right in whatever country they live is entirely a function of what "the state" allows or does not, and/or as the people will allow or not. These rights can be gone overnight -- just like that --regardless whether they are "inalienable," God given, straight out of the holy book, etched in stone or written in blood...

Ultimately it was your notion that people in other countries don't enjoy the freedoms that Americans do. This is not true, certainly not of all freedoms in any case. For whatever reason(s) may make a big important difference to you, but ultimately what is most important for most people is whether they truly enjoy this freedom or that, or not. Most modern countries in Western Europe provide and protect many if not all these freedoms at least as much as in America, with the notable exception of guns. They enjoy the freedom of less gun related violence instead, and happily so.

IOWs, you are wrong to think we Americans enjoy freedoms that others don't, but I can agree all these freedoms are either enjoyed and/or protected in different ways in different countries, some more successfully than others. America is not necessarily the most successful in all these respects, or in the case of all these freedoms that have existed in some countries longer than here.

Of course you know that abortion was legal when the Constitution was written, for example. What happened? Is that too one of those never at risk "inalienable rights" you think so different from the rights of people in other countries?
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Old 03-26-2017, 11:26 AM
 
29,405 posts, read 9,593,839 times
Reputation: 3441
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
I understand perfectly well. It's why the wealth gap increased so much under Obama.
Again off topic, but...

The wealth gap, much like the problem of health care costs, crime, drugs, has been a problem going back well before Obama and always a subject of public debate, focused upon by may past presidents, argued in Congress, but still apparently outside our government's ability to change any of that for the better, except, for example, in the case of Obama finally getting the ACA passed, AND STILL health care costs are going up, and STILL people are falling behind those who make all the money, STILL far too many Americans struggle to stay one step ahead of poverty level living. STILL too many living in poverty...

Understand the reason for what decade after decade seems the inevitable same ultimate trend and outcome, understand all the prevailing issues, problems, vested interests, and influences, beyond even the POTUS, and maybe you can hang Obama as you wish, but if that's your ultimate conclusion or final summation, then you qualify yourself to join the ranks of all other Americans who don't seem to know what's going on around them.

And that's no "lie, lie, lie!"
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