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The reason the bakery was wrong is because it violated local law. Oregon has an equality law which the bakery violated. If they were in another state they may have been well within their rights. Dont want to serve gays move your bakery to a state that will slow you to discriminate
I know in the 50's they refused blacks at some restaurants. Did I think that was wrong? Yes. But what were the business owners rights. Could he legally turn away blacks? (I was not alive during the 50's so not sure, perhaps someone could enlighten me).
In states with Jim Crow laws, it was illegal to serve blacks at the same counter as whites.
You're a member of the public, a public business has to serve you, unless you're a drunk and/or belligerent/disruptive.
Religion is no excuse - at all. Neither is politics.
I agree. When you advertise to the public, you should be prepared to serve the public. Now, if either of the people running those businesses did so by advertising privately, i.e., to friends or select groups, I'd also agree they could decline service for any reason they like.
In Oregon, a public accommodation cannot discriminate based on sexual orientation. The bakery was considered a public accommodation and therefore refusing service to a homosexual couple was illegal. Since the company bakes wedding cakes on the regular, then they cannot discriminate against customers in violation of the anti-discrimination laws.
For the Trump Hat, one would have to ask if wearing the hat constitutes "political activities". Currently, NY has provisions that prohibit discrimination based upon "political activities" rather than "political affiliation". If wearing the hat constitutes "political activities", then it was illegal for the bar owner to discriminate against him.
I'm of the mindset that when a person opens a business to the public, he or she needs to follow anti-discrimination laws, even if the laws protect a class of people they have an objection to, religiously based or not.
Actually, I don't think it's that complicated. What your customer did was theft. And I would have called the cops too.
As a side note, a service manager wearing a little gold cross around his neck at a car dealership did his best to fleece me out of the cost of a new car, by telling me it would cost around $3,000 to fix an electrical problem. I drove down the street to get a second opinion. Got the problem fixed on the spot for $38.
Just saying that overt religion is not a reliable indicator of being a good business or a good customer. Life would be much easier if you could rely on that little gold cross - or any other symbol or article of clothing - to tell you who is a good person or not.
But a) he was never convicted of theft (cops declined to even charge him); b) his next visit was when I refused him service. He was willing to pay, but I wasn't willing to sell. He would have met your criteria for right to service:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg
You're a member of the public, a public business has to serve you, unless you're a drunk and/or belligerent/disruptive.
If we are being truly respectful of individual liberty, a business can refuse service to anyone for any reason. Anything else is just rationalizing discrimination.
I'm left and both are within their rights. A private company should be able to set those sort of standards for it's business, regardless of how stupid the standard may be (publicly traded companies are different). A private business is basically an extension of their property and while I think a good property owner is someone who is conscious of his/her impact on their community, and certainly both the bar and bakery owner don't give a **** about anyone but themselves and are probably not great people, it is their property to use as they want.
Being a Trumper doesn't make you part of a protected class, from a civil standpoint. You can always go into a bar without wearing a Trump hat and get all the service you like.
If you are gay and want a wedding cake, you have to go through quite an ordeal to pretend you're not a gay couple looking for a wedding cake and let's be serious, your marriage ceremony and reception is far more important than a walk-in for drinks at a bar.
But, in short...
Gay people = protected from discriminatory practices based on their sexual orientation
Trumpers = not protected from retail discrimination due to political beliefs
It's really straightforward.
If you were a gay Trumper who wanted a cake made and someone refused because you were gay, it would be a problem, but if they refused because you were a Trump supporter, you wouldn't have a case.
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I'm left and both are within their rights. A private company should be able to set those sort of standards for it's business, regardless of how stupid the standard may be (publicly traded companies are different). A private business is basically an extension of their property and while I think a good property owner is someone who is conscious of his/her impact on their community, and certainly both the bar and bakery owner don't give a **** about anyone but themselves and are probably not great people, it is their property to use as they want.
Do you live in a larger city/suburb or do you live in a rural area?
Sometimes, the only place in town will not serve you. How about a gay couple with a baby who want to be seen by the doctor who refuses to see the child of gay people?
This has happened, btw.
You cannot be expected to drive around looking for medical care because people wanted to exercise their rights to discriminate against you.
Having a wedding and a cake made is a pretty big deal for most humans. If the only good caterer in town is one that won't bake you a cake because they're homophobic bigots, it's a problem.
Sure, if you live in a place with MANY options, it's not a big deal.
But, that is just not true for a good many people.
So, let's take your "what if a guy was a Trump supporter who wanted a drink and it was the only bar in town?"
Well, he could leave his MAGA hat at home and I guess if he was a well-behaved patron, nobody would care if he was there because his money spends as well as everyone else's?
Yes. That's usually how it would work.
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Do you live in a larger city/suburb or do you live in a rural area?
Sometimes, the only place in town will not serve you. How about a gay couple with a baby who want to be seen by the doctor who refuses to see the child of gay people?
This has happened, btw.
You cannot be expected to drive around looking for medical care because people wanted to exercise their rights to discriminate against you.
Having a wedding and a cake made is a pretty big deal for most humans. If the only good caterer in town is one that won't bake you a cake because they're homophobic bigots, it's a problem.
Sure, if you live in a place with MANY options, it's not a big deal.
But, that is just not true for a good many people.
So, let's take your "what if a guy was a Trump supporter who wanted a drink and it was the only bar in town?"
Well, he could leave his MAGA hat at home and I guess if he was a well-behaved patron, nobody would care if he was there because his money spends as well as everyone else's?
Yes. That's usually how it would work.
I've lived in both are various points in my life. Currently, I'm in a fairly small, rural town.
To address the medical care one; that's different. Medical care isn't just a service; it's vital resource. A doctor who decides he or she will not provide care for someone on some convoluted moral ground is a horrible person and should be in prison. A bar owner and a baker are a different story becasue those aren't necessary services. I get that wedding cakes are valuable in their own right and no doubt, if I were gay and I were refused service because of it, it would hurt. A lot. I can't even imagine, frankly. But at the same time, a cake and an emergency surgery are not the same thing and probably shouldn't be compared.
I hear you though. If a gay man lives in a small town and can't get good service because of all these hyper conservative business owners, it's a problem and there is no good solution. For the sake of consistency, a private business is private property and the owner has certain rights afforded to him. This is just my view based on my understanding of how public and private space are distinct. This is NOT under any circumstance an endorsement of discriminatory business practices. But, all the same, the standard for public and private rights need to be clearly established. The current understanding is that if a business owner can clearly explain why they are refusing service, they do have a right. The Trump voter getting kicked out of a bar is actually probably less justifiable in a legal sense, actually.
And to be clear, I think both are in their rights. I also think both are *******s whom I'd never do business with and would inform my friends of their backwards standards should any of them suggest visiting either establishment.
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