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And no, it's not harassment to ask someone how they found some of their material.
That is not all that you were doing and if you're being honest with yourself then you know it. I can point out all nine of your posts if you'd like to review them.
Katarina and Suzy, it all boils down to, despite all your Science posts, you aren't converting others which many of us have seen with your endless postings over the years. It goes beyond Science to basic Human Rights Issues.
That leads to the Political issues of vaccinations, which is why I posted that Harvard Law Review article about Jacobson in the 21st Century. I am far more concerned with the individual's right to choose the medical treatments they want for themselves and their children. If you cannot control your own body and those of your children's, you have no rights.
Religious issues, which you claim no major religions are against vaccinations? Given that an ever increasing population describes themselves are more spiritual than mainstream religious, how do you propose to argue that mainstream religions do not oppose vaccinations? A person MUST belong to an organized Religion to claim deeply religious views?
I know both of you have said that the rest of the Nation would follow California's lead after the Disney Measles outbreak in eliminating Religious Exemption for Vaccinations, but that has not happened.. Both State and Federal Legislation either died in committees or been outright voted against. Religious Freedom is very basic to the founding of America, and other than 3 states, the rest of the states do not want to open up that can of worms for vaccination to tamper with religious freedom, whatever that may be.
This issue goes far beyond SCIENCE, and that is why our Mods have put this into a Political Forum and rightfully so. Pure Science is not the only factor. KNOW that Katarina and Suzy.
Jacobson (Small Pox) in light of 21st Century vaccines, specifically Hep. B and HPV. The piece calls to differentiate between Practical Neccessity and Medical Necessity Vaccines. Airborne, contagious disease as with Small Pox in Jacobson (Medical Necessity Vaccine) versus Blood Borne/Sexual diseases like Hep. B and HPV (Practical Necessity Vaccine) for which measures can be taken by individuals (avoiding IV Drug usage, Safe/Monogomus Sex, Pap testing, etc) in lieu of a mandatory vaccine. A Tetanus Vaccination (Practical Necessity) would be in this category, as well as any new Zika Vaccine.
The author makes very good points concerning Hep. B and HPV, which is why many parents are specifically refusing these two vaccinations, and not the others.
Miss Terri, this gets to all the points you made about HPV vaccination and from a legal standpoint.
The author starts out with a fallacy. The hepatitis B and HPV vaccines are necessary to prevent the spread of disease. The law student who wrote that essay obviously never took courses in infectious disease or epidemiology. The only measure that will prevent HPV is to not have any sexual contact ever. Many cases of hepatitis B happen without the source of the infection being identified. Since the premise on which the author bases his argument is false, he has no argument, except perhaps for tetanus. Zika would be in the same category as rubella, with vaccination to protect unborn children, not because the illness itself is severe.
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Originally Posted by Tokinouta
Take it how you want. To me it means you have exhausted your point with useless crap and it doesn't deserve an answer. If you think you've made your point then great! It's a win, win!
I've moved on to war with Korea, and a massive bomb in Afghanistan. You know, real threatening stuff.
Yep, you have no rebuttal, Did you perhaps do a little research on the genetics of autism? Perhaps realize that autism is being diagnosed much earlier these days?
"The Modified Checklist for Autism in Toddlers-Revised (M-CHAT-R™) is a scientifically validated tool for screening children between 16 and 30 months of age that assesses risk for autism spectrum disorder (ASD)."
"The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) recommends that all children receive autism screening at 18 and 24 months of age, and the M-CHAT-R is one of the AAP’s recommended tools."
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Originally Posted by MissTerri
So much spin regarding the Thompsons study. I remember when the story broke and I remember how quickly things were covered up.
You repeating over and over that he did not admit to fraud does not make your assertion true. People can read his statement and look into it and decide for themselves.
Please give us a quote from Thompson that uses the word "fraud".
You might also want to explain why he has not said any words at all since the letter through his attorney. The only words we have heard from him are in carefully edited sound bites from Hooker's recordings. Why is he still working at the CDC? Would you work for someone that you thought was perpetrating fraud?
There was nothing covered up. Hooker outed Thompson, the CDC responded promptly, the study was given to outside reviewers (that means people not affiliated with the CDC and who had no participation in the original study), and the original conclusions of the study were upheld.
Another thing that has not been mentioned here is that the number of African American boys that you are insisting had autism caused by the MMR was small, seven if I remember correctly. There is no way to draw a valid conclusion about causation from that tiny number. Any theory of causation has to be plausible, too, and it's just not plausible that a vaccine would cause autism only in black boys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48
Katarina and Suzy, it all boils down to, despite all your Science posts, you aren't converting others which many of us have seen with your endless postings over the years. It goes beyond Science to basic Human Rights Issues.
That leads to the Political issues of vaccinations, which is why I posted that Harvard Law Review article about Jacobson in the 21st Century. I am far more concerned with the individual's right to choose the medical treatments they want for themselves and their children. If you cannot control your own body and those of your children's, you have no rights.
Religious issues, which you claim no major religions are against vaccinations? Given that an ever increasing population describes themselves are more spiritual than mainstream religious, how do you propose to argue that mainstream religions do not oppose vaccinations? A person MUST belong to an organized Religion to claim deeply religious views?
I know both of you have said that the rest of the Nation would follow California's lead after the Disney Measles outbreak in eliminating Religious Exemption for Vaccinations, but that has not happened.. Both State and Federal Legislation either died in committees or been outright voted against. Religious Freedom is very basic to the founding of America, and other than 3 states, the rest of the states do not want to open up that can of worms for vaccination to tamper with religious freedom, whatever that may be.
This issue goes far beyond SCIENCE, and that is why our Mods have put this into a Political Forum and rightfully so. Pure Science is not the only factor. KNOW that Katarina and Suzy.
I do not remember the thread being moved. I think the OP chose to put it here.
I never said that the rest of the country would eliminate religious and personal exemptions. If states that still have those exemptions face large outbreaks like the one California had, then we may very well see those exemptions go.
No organized religions object to vaccination, perhaps with the exception of one in the Netherlands. If you want to claim personal belief, that's fine, but don't try to claim it's religious. Personal belief just boils down to not wanting to vaccinate. As long as herd immunity holds, you can freeload on those of us who do vaccinate.
That is not all that you were doing and if you're being honest with yourself then you know it. I can point out all nine of your posts if you'd like to review them.
Is there a reason you do not want to share with us the search terms you used to find that article? Just repeat the search and give us a link to the results page. It should only take a few seconds.
The author starts out with a fallacy. The hepatitis B and HPV vaccines are necessary to prevent the spread of disease. The law student who wrote that essay obviously never took courses in infectious disease or epidemiology. The only measure that will prevent HPV is to not have any sexual contact ever. Many cases of hepatitis B happen without the source of the infection being identified. Since the premise on which the author bases his argument is false, he has no argument, except perhaps for tetanus. Zika would be in the same category as rubella, with vaccination to protect unborn children, not because the illness itself is severe.
Yep, you have no rebuttal, Did you perhaps do a little research on the genetics of autism? Perhaps realize that autism is being diagnosed much earlier these days?
"The Modified Checklist for Autism in Toddlers-Revised (M-CHAT-R™) is a scientifically validated tool for screening children between 16 and 30 months of age that assesses risk for autism spectrum disorder (ASD)."
"The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) recommends that all children receive autism screening at 18 and 24 months of age, and the M-CHAT-R is one of the AAP’s recommended tools."
Please give us a quote from Thompson that uses the word "fraud".
You might also want to explain why he has not said any words at all since the letter through his attorney. The only words we have heard from him are in carefully edited sound bites from Hooker's recordings. Why is he still working at the CDC? Would you work for someone that you thought was perpetrating fraud?
There was nothing covered up. Hooker outed Thompson, the CDC responded promptly, the study was given to outside reviewers (that means people not affiliated with the CDC and who had no participation in the original study), and the original conclusions of the study were upheld.
Another thing that has not been mentioned here is that the number of African American boys that you are insisting had autism caused by the MMR was small, seven if I remember correctly. There is no way to draw a valid conclusion about causation from that tiny number. Any theory of causation has to be plausible, too, and it's just not plausible that a vaccine would cause autism only in black boys.
I do not remember the thread being moved. I think the OP chose to put it here.
I never said that the rest of the country would eliminate religious and personal exemptions. If states that still have those exemptions face large outbreaks like the one California had, then we may very well see those exemptions go.
No organized religions object to vaccination, perhaps with the exception of one in the Netherlands. If you want to claim personal belief, that's fine, but don't try to claim it's religious. Personal belief just boils down to not wanting to vaccinate. As long as herd immunity holds, you can freeload on those of us who do vaccinate.
Your rights end where my grandchild's begin.
LMAO!!
I'm sure you know way more than me Suzy, after all, I'm just Autistic, how would I possibly know.
It's entertaining to watch how many ways you can rehash the same crap in huge multi postings over and over and over again. It's a skill within itself. I couldn't even get through this one to be honest. It's just amusing at this point. I just check in to see if you're still going like the energizer bunny. You haven't disappointed me yet. I can't believe how long this thread lasts, thanks to you it could be a CD record.
If polio and smallpox were to make a reappearance in this country, I would guess that the antivaxers would be fighting to get their kids to the front of the vaccination lines. Seeing Little Johnny or Little Suzy wheelchair bound for the rest of their lives (or dead) can be a powerful motivator.
Please give us a quote from Thompson that uses the word "fraud".
How ridiculous. he doesn't have to use the word fraud for it to be an admittance of fraud. What he admitted to is fraud.
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Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Is there a reason you do not want to share with us the search terms you used to find that article? Just repeat the search and give us a link to the results page. It should only take a few seconds.
I don't remember the exact words I used in my search. It's totally and completely irrelevant.
If polio and smallpox were to make a reappearance in this country, I would guess that the antivaxers would be fighting to get their kids to the front of the vaccination lines. Seeing Little Johnny or Little Suzy wheelchair bound for the rest of their lives (or dead) can be a powerful motivator.
That's actually more likely to happen from medical care. There are 250,000 deaths and injuries a year from medical professionals and pharma. Way more of a risk then not getting vaccinated. Yet,you still take your chances and go. Little Slater could easily be injured by a visit to your hospital or doctors office, yet I bet you would still take him after he was injured. People believe what they want.
So, even after a smallpox reappearance in this country, people still won't vaccinate who weren't going to right now. That's just your fantasy. It's not reality.
While we've been dithering at our computers, look what's been going on in California: Vaccination rate jumps in California after tougher inoculation law - LA Times "The vaccination rate for California’s kindergartners soared this fall from the previous year, fueled by a state law that made it significantly tougher for parents to exempt schoolchildren from shots.
It was the highest vaccination rate among kindergartners since at least 1998, and comes after a measles outbreak that began at Disneyland in 2014 focused new attention on the issue."
Do you have a child with special needs or is all your information and experience just wrapped up in what you heard from your pediatrician back in 1999?
I just so happen to be Autistic and I'm just wondering if you could clarify.
It doesn't matter if I have an autistic child or not, but I do not.
I did my research both then and now. Which was the reason why I had asked my pediatrician about his experience with autistic patients/MMR.
I had joined a "Birth Club Month" on Baby Center & there were so many fear mongerers (if that's a word) on the board who spouted so much BS it was unbelievable.
My favorite still is, after all of these years, that breast milk is an antibiotic. Just a few squirts in an infant's infected ear, a few times per day, will clear the infection. It will clear up in a week! But give Tylenol for the pain because the pain reliever in BM might not be enough. Infant has a blocked tear duct? BM! Fresh is preferred, but defrosted frozen will work too. Few squirts in the eye 3x a day..and don't forget the warm compress & to roll a q-tip on the infant/child's lower lid 3x a day too! It will clear up in a week or so. Ain't BM so wonderful? Cut your finger? Use BM! Even what comes back up in spit up b/c who wants to waste the liquid gold?
The stupid was astounding, but their never ending screaming that the MMR (and methyl-mercury, and smog) caused autism is what started my research on the issue. I have several physicians in my family (one is an infectious disease physician) and I picked their brains along with my pediatrician's.
I made a well researched and well informed decision to have all of my 3 fully vaccinated.
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There are still studies continuing in this area. There are no answers. Doctors don't even know what it is.
Yes, I am aware. The latest I heard was that research found autism-linked genes.
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Your pediatrician must be a genius! Most doctors don't diagnose Autism before age 5.
Most children with autism get diagnosed around age 5, when they start school. But signs of the developmental disorder may be seen as early as 1 year old.
I didn't say that he had diagnosed any child with autism. He never said that either. What he told me was that he could see that certain children weren't developing "normally" before they received the MMR (specific examples he gave were lack of eye contact & lack of non-verbal communication signals/gestures) & that parents of these children didn't tend to be open to the fact that there might be an underlying issue with their child. BEFORE receiving the MMR.
Quote:
"Yet even if a parent notices problems making eye contact or other early signs of autism, some doctors still dismiss those concerns, a study finds, saying the child will "grow out of it." That can delay diagnosis and a child's access to therapy. Some Doctors Still Dismiss Parents' Concerns About Autism : Shots - Health News : NPR
"Autism should be something that primary care pediatricians are really comfortable with, like asthma or ADHD, but it's not," says lead researcher Katharine Zuckerman, a pediatrician at Oregon Health & Science University, whose study was published Tuesday in The Journal of Pediatrics. "If you see a general pediatrician like me, I can't actually diagnose your child with autism."
There you have it! So I guess my pediatrician IS a "genius".
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Autistic's don't go around thinking vaccines gave them Autism. The go around wondering WHAT did give them Autism. We don't know yet, so please, keep that in mind and stay informed.
I'm aware that there is no definitive answer just yet, and I always stay informed.
However, there are folks like Mercola and several other nut job sites, such as whale.to, that many anti-vaxxers get their info from & then use as their anti-vax bible. Both Mercola and whale.to link autism to vaccinations. I haven't been to either Mercola's or whale in years - the stupid was strong & I'm sure it still is - and I don't see anyone citing these two "sources" here, so I don't bring them up, but let me tell you: NUTS!
Glad you moved on to the MOAB thread, circular arguments are just that & never get anywhere.
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