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Old 04-13-2017, 07:16 PM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,346,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009 View Post
"Racism" was a very minor issue with regard to the formative events and aftermath of WW1.
Civil rights should be a major issue to any American who cares about democratic values.

Telling the stories of African Americans who volunteered or even were drafted to fight for the their country, who served gallantly often suffering multiple wounds, and then were lynched when they returned home, is only a "minor issue" to those with a distorted sense of what is important.

The producers of "The Great War" were right to demonstrate repeatedly the hypocrisy of Woodrow Wilson, who demanded the sacrifice of American blood and treasure to make the world "safe for democracy," but then turned a blind eye to the great deficiencies of the American democracy which was in his charge.
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Old 04-13-2017, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Gone
25,231 posts, read 16,889,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Bully View Post
I have no doubt plenty of lefties and never Trumpers saw anti Trump comparisons in both that documentary and in their morning cereal as well. They don't seem to be capable of getting him out of their brains regardless of what the topic is. Your remarks further down in your post just serve to further reinforce my conclusion that you've let your petty partisan blindness ruin what could have actually been an interesting thread. I watched some of the series and found it interesting, and I may follow up on some of the youtube links suggested earlier in the thread. Perhaps I'll look on the history sub forum and see if I can find a more serious discussion on the topic there.
So after all of That, can you not even discuss the similarities, tell us, would trump not love being able to control the press and have anyone that spoke out against him or his policies arrested and jailed, we both know the answer hopefully we will not have to witness it. Your boy will be lucky to finish his first term.
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Old 04-13-2017, 08:05 PM
 
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Great post - though I'm going to have to catch the re-runs as I missed most of it.

I don't know how many episodes it was, but my impression is that it was fewer than the Civil War documentary, and it should have been the other way around.

I knew about WW's reluctance to give women the vote, but I didn't realize the extent of his racism.
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Old 04-14-2017, 01:05 AM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,346,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarallel View Post
Great post - though I'm going to have to catch the re-runs as I missed most of it.

I don't know how many episodes it was, but my impression is that it was fewer than the Civil War documentary, and it should have been the other way around.

I knew about WW's reluctance to give women the vote, but I didn't realize the extent of his racism.
You apparently can watch the episodes online. See post 16.
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Old 04-14-2017, 06:41 AM
 
16,212 posts, read 10,776,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009 View Post
"Racism" was a very minor issue with regard to the formative events and aftermath of WW1. To over emphasize this issue (which, in the scope of that event, was miniscule) is revisionist history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
Civil rights should be a major issue to any American who cares about democratic values.

Telling the stories of African Americans who volunteered or even were drafted to fight for the their country, who served gallantly often suffering multiple wounds, and then were lynched when they returned home, is only a "minor issue" to those with a distorted sense of what is important.

The producers of "The Great War" were right to demonstrate repeatedly the hypocrisy of Woodrow Wilson, who demanded the sacrifice of American blood and treasure to make the world "safe for democracy," but then turned a blind eye to the great deficiencies of the American democracy which was in his charge.
Sigh to hawkeye... maybe you didn't know the bold above. There were quite a few black soldiers who returned home from the war and were lynched or mobbed and injured, along with their families, friends and communities.

They were attacked for having on their military uniform in many cases.

The War actually instigated the rise of black nationalist groups, who were much more on the fringes of black America at that time. Those groups rose to prominence within black America and have had a significant impact on American history in general and they came about as a direct response to black Americans being upset about the treatment of black soldiers following WW1.

It was not about "racism" in its essence but about the outright oppression and the gall of white America at the time to just want to kill any black man who didn't know his place after he fought for this country.

It was not a "minor" issue back then and the Red Summer of 1919 was directly related to the de-mobilization of the war and it is what galvanized the traditionalist wing of the Civil Rights movement lead by the NAACP and WEB DuBois and caused the growth of black nationalist groups. The "Anti-Lynching" issue was a huge one in the early part of the 20th century in America and was the Civil Rights Movement of that era.
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Old 04-14-2017, 07:22 AM
 
25,788 posts, read 16,422,799 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
What do you mean? I wouldn't be shocked if, when it comes to "thinking," you would be a moron at Princeton.
I would say their students are more programmed than taught and thinking for yourself is frowned upon these days, unless of course you are with the program. Of course they are intelligent kids, just like the Soviet and Red Chinese kids were intelligent.
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Old 04-14-2017, 07:28 AM
 
Location: deafened by howls of 'racism!!!'
52,451 posts, read 34,176,412 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
Not mentioned in the documentary is one theory that the massive loans made to France and Britain by American financial interests motivated their desire for American entry into the war when it appeared, given the eminent collapse of Russia on the eastern front, that German forces might overwhelm Britain and France and result in a default on these loans. See business considerations here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americ...considerations
wrong, they definitely mentioned that aspect.
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Old 04-14-2017, 07:35 AM
 
25,788 posts, read 16,422,799 times
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If you are going to challenge today's college kids belief system, the one they have been brainwashed with, this is what happens. Clubs, bricks, pepper spray and knives at a "peaceful political rally"

A FAR CRY from the peaceful political rallys of 40+ years ago when kids actually had something to protest, like getting drafted for a BS war and getting killed and maimed for absolutely no reason.

What do they have to protest today? Slow internet disrupting their xbox time? No, what they are protesting is challenges to their ingrained, programmed belief system.

Farmers
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:53 PM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,346,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PullMyFinger View Post
I would say their students are more programmed than taught and thinking for yourself is frowned upon these days, unless of course you are with the program. Of course they are intelligent kids, just like the Soviet and Red Chinese kids were intelligent.
What's your evidence to suggest that Princeton "students are more programmed than taught?"

<<Yet at Princeton, conservative students and faculty alike said that the great deal of political diversity was what separated Princeton from more liberal schools like the University of California, Brown or SDSU. It is unclear whether Princeton is truly “the most conservative Ivy,” but members of the conservative community signaled repeatedly that they feel comfortable on campus....

Nevertheless, no conservative campus leader with whom The Daily Princetonian spoke could recall any firsthand instances of receiving an unfair grade or being singled out in the classroom due to their political views. Instead, most students found that professors and preceptors tended to be very welcoming of challenges when they discovered conservative students’ views.>>


Conservative comfort at the


Those aware of Princeton's somewhat unique undergraduate educational system, with a heavy emphasis on precepts and independent study, understand that Princeton undergraduates are deliberately NOT programmed, as noted in the above article:


<<Politics professor emeritus Paul Sigmund, who taught a course on conservatism from 1980 to 2006, credited the precept system with encouraging critical thinking and providing liberal professors with an opportunity to elicit conservative critiques, preventing a single viewpoint from becoming oppressive.>>


Few institutions in the world foster independent and critical thought to the extent of Princeton.


As a result, if you haven't noticed, Princeton has a strong conservative bent. Check out the alma maters of Sen. Ted Cruz and Supreme Court justice Samuel Alito. Donald Rumsfeld is a graduate, as is Meg Whitman, whom you also perhaps consider a RINO. Jeff Bezos, one of the most successful entrepreneurs and wealthiest individuals in the U.S., is a Princeton alumnus that may be the ultimate role model for many of today's Princeton undergraduates.

Princeton has perhaps the best undergraduate economics education in the U.S., and a large percentage of its students are well versed in market forces and probably well understand the U.S. political system and macro economics better than you.

Does this recent editorial from the "Daily Princetonian" student newspaper represent what you would expect from a flock of "programmed" liberal fledglings?

<<Princeton University is an educational institution, not a political advocacy organization. Decisions made by the University must further educational goals, not political ends. The Princeton University Investment Company has a core mission to make investments that will produce high and reliable returns on the endowment, which in turn provide the University with the financial stability necessary to spend money on financial aid, new facilities, and other educational necessities.

Many corporations sell items that are highly objectionable to some members of the community. Environmentalists might object to oil drilling companies and vegetarians to meat-packing companies. Still, it would be false to construe an investment in, for example, ExxonMobil or Tyson Foods, as a moral stance in favor of oil or meat consumption. It simply reflects PRINCO’s understanding that investment in these firms will yield higher or more reliable returns than alternative investments. PRINCO makes investments based on financial considerations, and the decision to invest is made independent of the University.>>

Editorial: The importance of opposing divestment | The Princetonian

That editorial represents a degree of sophisticated thought unlikely to be found at many U.S. undergraduate institutions.

Yet a large majority of Princeton undergraduates may be appalled by Trump policies.

Consider that Trump and his Trumpies generally believe that man-made climate change (including easily measured ocean warming and acidification) isn't a significant problem, despite overwhelming scientific evidence and clear empirical evidence, such as rapid global ice melt and disappearing and impaired flora and fauna species globally (check out the devastation being caused by the pine beetle in N. America as freezing winter temperatures have lessened).

For informed young people, this may be the most consequential issue of their lives as they will have to deal with a myriad of consequences of the failure of Republicans, especially Trump, to understand (admit) the seriousness of this problem and to deal with it.

Much as with Vietnam when I was a kid, personally I easily understand how intelligent, young Americans are appalled by the positions of the Republican Party on this and other issues.

Those of us who once admired Republican leadership, were heartened that the Republican "Old Guard," led by James Baker, has finally joined in the climate change debate. Baker's service to our nation dwarfs in accomplishments that of any 21st Republican statesman.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...ut-regulations

If you're a typical Trumpie, you'll now perhaps offer the ridiculous charge that Baker (check out Baker Botts), one of America's most preeminent corporate lawyers, also is a RINO (Republican in Name Only). I suppose this is true if the ravaging of our environment is a key mantra of being a Republican in 2017.

Those who are programmed IMO are the small-minded lemmings who are following the current Republican leadership, who either are ignorant or liars, over the cliff on issues such as climate change.

If anything, after spending some time noodling through the Daily Princetonian website, I was struck by the absence of outrage over climate change. What I detected was a sense of resigned realization.

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/art...wf-ceo-roberts

Personally, I believe every American high school and university should have a course on climate change science, and I emphasize "science."

As for the controversy about the Woodrow Wilson legacy at Princeton University, anybody who has studied Woodrow Wilson, or even viewed "The Great War," could find many reasons to be disgusted by Woodrow Wilson and revolted by prominently honoring him.

Being from northeast Ohio, Woodrow Wilson's views on race compared to those of Republican James A. Garfield are appalling. See post 6 here:

//www.city-data.com/forum/cleve...-american.html

Here's an article discussing the Princeton University's position on Woodrow Wilson iconography, which is very prominent on the Princeton campus.

News and Notes: U. will not follow Yale in renaming of controversial buildings | The Princetonian

Note that there apparently aren't massive student protests against the university's position, and a large majority of the Princeton student body is indifferent to the issue.

Anyway, labeling Princeton undergrads as "programmed," is nothing more than hurling uninformed insults against what will likely be many of America's greatest leaders in coming decades, and their leadership likely will result from a dynamism made possible by a concerted absence of programming and excellence in critical thinking. Jeff Bezos increasingly appears to be the Henry Ford of the early 21st century, and I suspect that his Princeton education played a significant role in his success -- "disagree and commit."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/...y-1/100418722/

Last edited by WRnative; 04-14-2017 at 02:01 PM..
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Old 04-14-2017, 01:07 PM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,346,069 times
Reputation: 7213
Quote:
Originally Posted by uggabugga View Post
wrong, they definitely mentioned that aspect.
Good. I somehow missed it.

Did they mention the famous Nye Committee hearings? If so, I missed that as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nye_Committee

The American revulsion to the nation's participation in World War I contributed greatly to America's general lack of preparedness on the eve of World War II.

The crucial 1940 draft legislation, which provided the initial manpower to allow the U.S. to halt expansion of the Axis early in World War II (in North Africa and at Guadalcanal and New Guinea), passed the House of Representatives by only one vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Select...ce_Act_of_1940

The adverse reaction to "Wilson's war" almost cost America dearly a generation later.

https://fee.org/articles/wilsons-war...-world-war-ii/

Here's another modern conservative critique of Woodrow Wilson. Unlike "The Great War," this article also discusses how Wilson's policies aimed at defeating Germany may have resulted in Lenin's succeeding to power in Russia.

https://www.cato.org/policy-report/m...-great-mistake

Perhaps my biggest criticism of "The Great War" was its failure to discuss the subsequent reaction against "Wilson's War," and the consequences for the U.S. and the world. One of Wilson's biggest goals in leading the U.S. into the war was the establishment of the League of Nations, and yet he sabotaged America's participation in the League, and further fostered the rise of a virulent American isolationism that almost proved disastrous, especially if Franklin Roosevelt hadn't been in charge in the 1930s (contrary to general American opinion, Roosevelt's excellence as an economic leader can be easily criticized -- read Milton Friedman or Ben Bernanke or check out the Swedish experience during the global Great Depression -- but Roosevelt's excellence as a military commander-in-chief IMO has no equal in American history, not even Washington or Lincoln, both of whom were superb).

Last edited by WRnative; 04-14-2017 at 01:34 PM..
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