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The authors say that women lack the kind of abstract reasoning abilities needed to be a great mathematician. Their evidence for the claim is that almost all of the great mathematicians have been men.
Almost everyone lacks the degree of abstract reasoning ability needed to be a great mathematician. That's why only a handful of people in recorded history are known as such. Murray doesn't say that women can't be great mathematicians. Clearly a few women have made important contributions to that field. But the vast majority of those who have excelled in math, and other abstract scientific endeavors, have been men. From this it is quite reasonable to conclude that genius in abstract reasoning is not evenly distributed among the sexes. By contrast there is no reason whatsoever to assume or conclude that men and women are equal in this area.
No, I didn't read the book, just read articles about it. Reading some more right now.
Read this one.
Quote:
...let’s face it: the firestorm of controversy about “The Bell Curve” was all about race. We now have 20 more years of research and data since you published the book. How does your position hold up?
First, a little background: Why did Dick and I talk about race at all? Not because we thought it was important on its own. In fact, if we lived in a society where people were judged by what they brought to the table as individuals, group differences in IQ would be irrelevant. But we were making pronouncements about America’s social structure (remember that the book’s subtitle is “Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life”). If we hadn’t discussed race, “The Bell Curve” would have been dismissed on grounds that “Herrnstein and Murray refuse to confront the reality that IQ tests are invalid for blacks, which makes their whole analysis meaningless.” We had to establish that in fact IQ tests measure the same thing in blacks as in whites, and doing so required us to discuss the elephant in the corner, the mean difference in test scores between whites and blacks.
Here’s what Dick and I said: There is a mean difference in black and white scores on mental tests, historically about one standard deviation in magnitude on IQ tests (IQ tests are normed so that the mean is 100 points and the standard deviation is 15). This difference is not the result of test bias, but reflects differences in cognitive functioning. The predictive validity of IQ scores for educational and socioeconomic outcomes is about the same for blacks and whites.
Those were our confidently stated conclusions about the black-white difference in IQ, and none of them was scientifically controversial. See the report of the task force on intelligence that the American Psychological Association formed in the wake of the furor over “The Bell Curve.”
Murray became infamous merely for addressing his subject honestly and not submitting to PC controls over what science is suitable for a general audience.
Murray became infamous merely for addressing his subject honestly and not submitting to PC controls over what science is suitable for a general audience.
Yeah, but he's said some problematic things for someone that's supposed to be so intelligent.
The "Jews are God's chosen people" is the first one that comes to mind. That's about as stupid a statement as it gets seeing as how he wasn't joking.
That aside, as I said before, the Bell Curve was a pretty damn good book overall.
One reason I don't pay much mind to the Bell Curve is this. How does it affect MY life? What does it have to do with me the individual in terms of what I do with my life?
How does it affect MY life? What does it have to do with me the individual in terms of what I do with my life?
Likely not at all / very little.
I can say the same (little to no effect on my life) about a lot of things that interest me a lot more than Murray's work, though -- quantum physics, cosmology, ancient history, evolution, and predictions of what type of technology the planet will have in the 2300s, for example.
Almost everyone lacks the degree of abstract reasoning ability needed to be a great mathematician. That's why only a handful of people in recorded history are known as such. Murray doesn't say that women can't be great mathematicians. Clearly a few women have made important contributions to that field. But the vast majority of those who have excelled in math, and other abstract scientific endeavors, have been men. From this it is quite reasonable to conclude that genius in abstract reasoning is not evenly distributed among the sexes. By contrast there is no reason whatsoever to assume or conclude that men and women are equal in this area.
You missed the whole point of what I wrote, and you left it out of your quote.
The great geniuses in mathematics were mostly men. Can you therefore conclude that men are more likely to be mathematics geniuses? No, you can't, because the great geniuses in EVERYTHING have been men. Even in things that women OBVIOUSLY can be great at.
How can you separate out the effects of culture? Women were discouraged, until recently, from having professional careers. If a women had great mathematical ability, she was very strongly discouraged from using it. If a woman was great at designing dresses, she was discouraged from becoming a professional fashion designer.
Do you get my point? We don't know how much is nature vs nurture.
I can say the same (little to no effect on my life) about a lot of things that interest me a lot more than Murray's work, though -- quantum physics, cosmology, ancient history, evolution, and predictions of what type of technology the planet will have in the 2300s, for example.
Thing is, I get processes of the earth, and technology. I think about the Bell Curve and think "this is just a way of saying 'said group of people are inferior and hopeless and are inherently this way' ". I have to wonder what the Bell Curve has to do with me and my life. If I took that book at its word, I would have to hang it up and accept a life of mediocrity and inferiority.
Location: Born & Raised DC > Carolinas > Seattle > Denver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar
The students, And I, are not fond of people like this. Its a mixture of science and hatred. They come at it with a destination in mind, then find justifications.
But. If you suppress their speech they will suppress yours. I approve of non violent demonstrations. I don't approve of silencing them. If you don't like what they have to say you know what you could do that would be even better?
Have a speech at your college the next day title "Why X is wrong/racist/ etc". Fight their speech with yours. Its why I have never been to a protest, but I have written extensively on politics here and elsewhere.
Agree completely. I believe most democrats agree with you.
It's crazy how fascinated conservatives are with what's going on at liberal college campuses lately...as if 18-22 year old kids represent all of democrats nationwide.
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