Blacks, Why the struggle to get ahead vs. other races? (unemployment, drugs)

[NewToCA]

I changed the title a bit, hopefully that meets your concerns.

[Humboldt1]

Thanks moderator.

I appreciate you changing the title to reflect proper grammar.

I hate it when people call me ignorant for having the candor to talk about tough issues such as this which I still believe belongs on the Chicago forum though it makes many uncomfotable who would rather discuss non-controversial topics such as the weather in Chicago.

Chicago is the case study for what works and what does not in large american cities. Concentrating the problem and poor people in certain areas called projects did not work. I would argue it would have been more effective had we done a better job limiting population growth in these peojects. Many will be offended but a bunch of poor people having tons of kids at the taxpayers expense regardless of race is not a good idea. In the past before socialism and welfare this was simply not an option as above a certain number of kids you could not provide for your children and mother nature took care of the rest.

I am not a darwinist but believe you should be able to take care of kids before you have them. Of course stuff happens, maybe once or twice but not 5 times.

[Ab.Aspectus]

Hello, I am new to this forum and thought I could add my perspective on the topic. First, I would have to say that Humboldt1 and Eevee hit it right on the nail with some of their analysis and I'd like to reiterate some of their points. I really hate to be so descriptive about myself but for the sake of the topic I will.

I am a Black college student at one of the Chicago area universities, born and raised in North Suburban Chicago (North Shore) to an established African American family. My family has been in Chicago area for approximately six generations and I will share our insight with you all because I think this is a perspective you would rarely hear from.

So, Ok....My family came to Chicago from Cleveland, Ohio in the late nineteenth century. They had already established themselves in the Black community due to in large part by an inheritance given by the patriarch who happened to be a German immigrant (for those of you who are wondering he married a mulatto woman of Native American/Black descent). Their descendants came to Chicago and settled in the Ogden Park neighborhood of Englewood where they were one of a few Blacks in the area. Family stories tell us that the Ogden Park neighborhood was a stop on the Underground Railroad where my family helped runaway slaves flee to Canada. The handful of Blacks that were in Ogden Park at that time had established businesses. In fact my Great Great Grandparents opened a restaurant on what was 63rd and Loomis Boulevard and a Jewelry store (whose jewelry Marshall Field picked up and sold in it's store making my Great Great Grandfather the first Black vendor for Marshall Field, especially at a time when Blacks couldn't even buy nor walk through the store.)- I gave you this bit because I wanted to give you an example of the original Black American families that came to Chicago- they were indeed pioneering families. Keep in mind this is pre-1920's. Though they were small in numbers there were black families like this all over Chicago who lived on the North Side, South Side, West Side, and even what is today Downtown.

Then you had the first actual Black Migration that happened in the 20's. I think Humboldt1 made an accurate assessment of this in his post. Majority of these first migrants were actually college educated and professionally trained families from the South who came to Chicago in search of work because they had no chance in their respected professions in their hometowns. An example of this type of family is that of John W. Rogers, owner of Ariel Capital Management here in Chicago. His mother was Jewel Stradford Lafonant who was educated at Oberlin, was a distinguished attorney and deputy solicitor under President Nixon. His Grandfather was C. Francis Stradford who was also educated at Oberlin and was also an attorney. C.F. Stratford fled Tulsa, Oklahoma where is father, also educated at Oberlin was a wealthy Black banker. The Whites in the area were jealous of his wealth and decided to burn his business down and kill him. Luckily him and his family escaped and they came to Chicago. This is the second type of Black family that came to the area. It is also interesting to note that this is around the time when Chicago's Bronzeville neighborhood was created.

So here I would like to make the point about Bronzeville. This first migration brought southern Blacks up here in large numbers, to the point where the Whites in power here in Chicago made the decision to put all Blacks -no matter what type of education, wealth, or status one had- in one defined area. This included the native Blacks that were already established. Oddly enough my family was able to stay in Englewood, and would proudly boast that they never lived in Bronzeville. Needless to say this left the Black families that originally lived in the other city neighborhoods and their descendants very bitter at the southern Blacks because they had to abandon their livelihoods and now were being forced to the south side. Of course this inevitably started the class system that is in place here within Black Chicago.

Now you have the 2nd and 3rd Migrations. These group of Blacks who came to Chicago where "the streets were paved with gold" were primarily the poor, uneducated southerners who were trying to escape the sharecropping lifestyle. Now what I say some may beg to differ but the general consensus of my older relatives were that these Blacks were the ones who were looking to get on relief. When they got here they found out that Chicago didn't have "streets paved with gold" but they also didn't try to make an effort to better their situation. They are the ones that didn't adjust to the urban lifestyle and opted for welfare. I think many of the Blacks that a lot of the people on this website criticize are in fact the descendants of those migrant Blacks.

To speak further on Bronzeville, my family has really made some striking observations about the neighborhood. They believe in fact that more Black Professionals were being produced at that time than any other time in Chicago (even today). Why? Well because of the restrictive covenants (segregation) that left Blacks in one defined area, everything was self contained. Blacks had to depend on each other. They had to support their own business establishments. They had to depend on Black doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc. Bronzeville was similar to todays ethnic neighborhoods i.e. Chinatown. Black wealth was sustained in this area. Bronzeville was eventually more influential than New York's Harlem. I think Chicagoans today would be astounded by what the Black Chicagoans had in Bronzeville. I was just looking at some old family photos of the debutante cotillions, formal balls, social tea parties etc.. that my family held and was invited to that were held in Bronzeville by the prominent Blacks who all stayed in Greystone and Brownstone mansions. Their businesses ranging from retail stores, to theatres, hospitals, insurance companies, doctor offices, law firms, grocery stores, so on and so forth. Even many of the southern migrants started to change their stations and move up economically (there was a specific reason for this I will get to shortly).

And then the Great Depression hit that affected all and devastated most. The wealthier Blacks were able to weather it out, but the others were subjected to poverty and very harsh conditions. Many of the Black professionals whose incomes so heavily depended on their Black clients hit hard time because they weren't able to collect fees. Needless to say things got better as time had passed but the plight that is so noticeable today was in some part, not all, due to that.

Lets jump forward to the 60's. This is the time when the restrictive covenants were lifted. Due to the masses of poor Blacks that had sinced moved out of Bronzeville into surrounding neighborhoods including Englewood, my family was fed up and decided to close down their businesses and move out into south suburban Flossmoor (this was around 1962). I will say that almost all of the native Black Chicago families who were still bitter for being grouped with the southern blacks moved out into white suburban towns and about 60% of the families of the first migrant group followed suit-(This is around the time when the first Black family actually moved into Kenilworth, on the North Shore of Chicago). The other 40% moved into surrounding fashionable neighborhoods including Hyde Park, Kenwood, Jackson Park Highlands, Pill Hill, Chatham, Beverly, and Downtown-(actually I believe the first Blacks to move into the John Hancock Building was around this time also).

These Blacks took their businesses and left, leaving behind the urban slums of the South Side today. If we jump forward to the late 80's and early 90's many Blacks from the city were bettering their situation and started to move out to the southern suburbs in numbers. My family saw the influx of Blacks especially around the Flossmoor area, and thought it was a sign of trouble ahead and picked up and moved to the North Shore of Chicago where they are still one of the only Black families in the area.....And they like it like this.

-Now here is the point to all of my rambling-

The Problem with the plight of Black Chicagoans is OUR problem (Black American) and our problem only. My detailed ramblings was to show that the Blacks Chicagoans who HAD did not help the ones that DID NOT have, whether because of bitterness, animosity, or jealousy. The ones who didn't have anything settled for relief and didn't want to further their stations. Both are to be blamed. To be fair, there of course were many who try/tried to help the current problem especially the 40% of black professionals that stayed on the south side. But it wasn't enough. Many fled and didn't want to deal with those urban Blacks. Well in doing so they took the number of visible mentors out of the community leaving the people with no one to look up to. And this is why there were so many Black Professionals in the beginning of Bronzeville. Segregation enabled the poor to live side by side with the rich and people were able to see the prominece that could be attained. They had people to look up to. They had mentors. They all depended on each other. Now who do the inner city blacks have to look up to. The rappers, athletes, and entertainers that they see on television who instill in them a false lifestyle of grandeur and conspicuous consumption. Not the thousands of Black professionals that escaped the area. -And just for those of you who don't know Chicago literally has thousands of Black Professional families in the area, more than cities like Atlanta, DC and any other city in the U.S., even probably New York because Chicago was the first to establish a visible black professional class, even before New York- (Harlem came after Bronzeville)-and their descendants are all scattered about in the city proper and in most of the 300 or so suburbs of Chicago.
Segregation was wrong on all counts but it did play a part in centralizing Black wealth. The problem is ours. We need to go back into the city and help those unfortunate establish themselves because we had our parts in it. The urban families need to wake up and establish solid home foundations for their children. We need to raise expectations and morals, and we need to tackle the issues that are facing our community ourselves. I believe we need to stop running away from our problems and just deal with them. I know this is a very looong post and I do have more to say but I'm going to end it for right now!

[NewToCA]

Originally Posted by Ab.Aspectus

The Problem with the plight of Black Chicagoans is OUR problem (Black American) and our problem only. My detailed ramblings was to show that the Blacks Chicagoans who HAD did not help the ones that DID NOT have, whether because of bitterness, animosity, or jealousy. The ones who didn't have anything settled for relief and didn't want to further their stations. Both are to be blamed. To be fair, there of course were many who try/tried to help the current problem especially the 40% of black professionals that stayed on the south side. But it wasn't enough. Many fled and didn't want to deal with those urban Blacks. Well in doing so they took the number of visible mentors out of the community leaving the people with no one to look up to. And this is why there were so many Black Professionals in the beginning of Bronzeville. Segregation enabled the poor to live side by side with the rich and people were able to see the prominece that could be attained. They had people to look up to. They had mentors. They all depended on each other....

Segregation was wrong on all counts but it did play a part in centralizing Black wealth. The problem is ours. We need to go back into the city and help those unfortunate establish themselves because we had our parts in it. The urban families need to wake up and establish solid home foundations for their children. We need to raise expectations and morals, and we need to tackle the issues that are facing our community ourselves. I believe we need to stop running away from our problems and just deal with them. I know this is a very looong post and I do have more to say but I'm going to end it for right now!

Interesting perspective, but it also leads to a couple of questions. Do the black folks who achieve really have a specific obligation to remain in the community with those who don't, and what do you see as their obligation in terms of dealing with the problem of those who continue to fail? Keeping in mind that those who achieve frequently also have families and significant financial obligations associated with success, what do you see as the tradeoffs in obligation to family vs the black community?

[Humboldt1]

I don't know whose responsibility, white or black or everyone's to fix the problems of the impoverished black community but I don't want my tax dollars going toward a bottomless hole. People need to take responsibility for themselves. It is no more the educated black community or white people like me who are responsible for poverty. People ultimately are their biggest helper. Sure, I can help a little and mentor and the like, but ultimately you choose to work hard and succeed. I cannot make you be something you choose not to be.

[Phl_Gd]

This forum is not for this...this is something I can talk about for hours...Where the unfortunate sense of entitlement comes from, were the seemingly lack of progress stems from...it is rather unfair to lump the recent black immigrants to African-Americans born into a culture of cyclic dispair. Actually, the very fact that others of the same color but without the generationally built in ceilings is a testament to what is going on here in America...it is not a color thing...it is social thing...there is literature about this...read and understand. As much as people want to gloss over it, you can't ignore the effect of slavery and the associated mentality. This is something most immigrants did not have to deal with here. Far from an excuse because determination will pull you out of anything but the answer here is not as easy as it may seem...it is a very complex dynamic here folks. Again, smarter people than me have studied and written about this and I feel better to have seen the alternative discourse as to why our black culture is stuck in neutral...or so it seems. (Go to cities like Atlanta and DC and you will see a different African-American culture)

[condorito]

Ignorance is the reason for the "struggle". Illegal Mexicans come to this country with no papers and they are able to make a living and raise families. My parents came to this country as immigrants and what they were able to accomplish in this country in less than 20 years is AMAZING! Now, I hear US born African Americans complaining about how there are no jobs out there and no one will hire them, therefore crime and illegal activities for many are seen as their "only option". It just makes absolutely no sense!

[Noc]

Originally Posted by condorito

African-American culture can be very ignorant. Lot of emphasis on materialism(diamonds, chains, cars, etc), no emphasis on manners, there is a certain pride in acting ignorant, foolish or rude, very little respect for others, authority, parents, rules, etc. Put that together, with the total breakdown of family (kids without Dads is almost the norm) and you get the result. I work with many Africans from Africa and they are just normal. They do not act stupid, they do not talk stupid, they do not have an attitude, many are intelectual, educated and speak great English. They do not wear dorags on their heads or wear pants with their asses exposed and that is essentially the reason why these Africans are way more succesful than US born African Americans.

You have just defined two groups in your post.

Black Americans (second,third and forth gen Americans)- this group is what you have described first

and

African Americans (first gen Americans) - this group is what you described second

[jrod2828]

Thug culture. Period.

Black America has for the most part embraced a culture that is destructive. It promotes guns, drugs and the degredation of women. It promotes poverty, gangs and is extremely anti-education. As long as Black America embraces a culture that is destructive they will stay in the poverty cycle.

This has nothing to do with music. More of the culture. White kids listen to rap music. Black kids embrace the culture. That is the difference.

[pennquaker09]

Originally Posted by jrod2828

Thug culture. Period.

Black America has for the most part embraced a culture that is destructive. It promotes guns, drugs and the degredation of women. It promotes poverty, gangs and is extremely anti-education. As long as Black America embraces a culture that is destructive they will stay in the poverty cycle.

This has nothing to do with music. More of the culture. White kids listen to rap music. Black kids embrace the culture. That is the difference.

That's not entirely correct. How many black kids have went and shot up kids at school? And I know more white kids that did drugs when I was in high school.