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I love Gettysburg and go there often. Most history buffs would like it. Flying that flag in Gettysburg to me would mean you are stating where you are from and nothing more. My girls got shirts there that say "Little Yankee Gal" and my neice from VA got one that says "Little Southern Belle". No hatred about it. Just stating our heritage or family background.
I think how the flag is used represents it's meaning. White Supremecy groups use it to represent hate but I don't think that is how it is meant by many other groups. As stated by many others, kids use it as a symbol of rebellion. Southerners may use it to represent their history. So I guess it all depends on where and how the flag is being used.
One thing I'd like to add for my small part, since for some reason I still cannot see the original image, I don't know precisely which flag it is. Muhnay, you sometimes refer to the stars and bars which was NOT the confederate battle flag made so famous by the Dukes of Hazzard. The stars and bars was the first official flag of the CSA government. This flag I DO take particular exception to because it directly represents the secession and the civil war that ensued. The ONLY reason someone should fly the stars and bars is for the sake of historical reenactment or at locations of historical importance wrt the civil war.
I'm a proud son of the south but I understand that many people can, with plenty of reason, view it as a symbol of slavery and oppression and I respect that view. I believe in a vision of a new south with real racial equality and if that means we need to put away the old then so be it. There will be plenty of opportunities for us to raise up new symbols of southern pride.
When you see this Symbol, what comes to mind? What are your first thoughts? Why do you think that? Please stay on topic.. and no Personal Attacks, keep this about the symbol and not about the person responding.
It doesn't make me feel anything. It reminds me of the Civil War or the Dukes of Hazzard.
On a serious note though, I see nothing wrong with it being used as long as it's in proper context and not as a symbol of one race's hatred towards another (because we all know that it's been co-opted for that more than once)
The (unofficial) Battleflag of the Confederacy means something or nothing to everybody who sees it. Whereas some people see the flag as a symbol of hatred, racism, and slavery - others will perceive the flag as a symbol of Pride.
To me, personally, the flag stands for defiance against authority. It is a reminder that if you kick a dog (figuratively) long enough, it will bite.
The stars and bars was the first official flag of the CSA government. This flag I DO take particular exception to because it directly represents the secession and the civil war that ensued. The ONLY reason someone should fly the stars and bars is for the sake of historical reenactment or at locations of historical importance wrt the civil war.
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Interesting take. IMO the Stars and Bars can be flown without issue while the battle flag I can see people taking exception to because of how hate groups have warped it's meaning and heritage.
So your main issue with the south that you espouse pride in is that they seceded in the first place??? Makes me wonder how you can support ANY Confederate banner then...
Its subjective interpetation by each individual is irrelevant. Its factual meaning from everything from the colors and stars (to which they represent), to the historical relevance (its a battle flag what was actually turned down for the national flag of the confederacy, yet flown during the battles by many). Its representation of the people to which they designed the flag and its actual depicted representation of that ideal (not what others like to perceive, but what they have said it stands for when it was created).
Thats all that matters. The comments of "what it means to me" is relevant only to that person and it does not change the facts of what the flag actually is a representation of. Subjective and personal interpetation is just a slippery slope that serves the individual motives of another.
The US flag has a direct meaning and understanding to its design. Some have personally subjective views on what the flag means. Those views are only relevant in their own minds, much like this flag and peoples opinion of "what it means to me".
Hmmm. It reminds of failed state that was founded for the sole purpose of continuing slavery.
That would be incorrect Frank. It is a common fallacy that the confederates were brought to bare over that issue. It was also war propaganda during the time pushed by the north because many slaves in the south actually were fighting for the south.
While there were some wrong hoods and poor treatment of slaves in the south, the common belief that it was a den of human evil is honestly a purposeful misunderstanding.
I am by no means saying it was correct that they had slaves or that there was not injustice, but keep in mind "indentured" service was a common theme during the creation of the colonies. Many from Europe (all races) essentially "sold themselves" into indentured service in order to pay for the trip over.
Also, we only hear of the evil way slaves were treated, but many back then were actually considered a part of the family (sure, they had no freedom to leave ultimately in that deal, but not every slave was a butcher block for the evil white man). Many also were given their freedom in the same manner as an indentured servant. They would work many years for the family and when they became older, the owner would free them, give them some land and a stipend to which they could live out the rest of their life.
Many continued to work for the families even after they were freed. Many had no ill will for those they were slaves to and actually felt them as family as well.
Again, not that it was right, but the war was actually fought over many other issues and those issues are brushed aside in current history books to push the single issue of slavery.
You know the saying though "history is written by the victor".
Hmmm. It reminds of failed state that was founded for the sole purpose of continuing slavery.
I disagree with that analysis. There was much more to secession than slavery. The southern states had a variety of problems with the federal system; the slavery issue was merely the most egregious of them -- though the one on which the South was most definitely and clearly in the wrong.
In addition to governance issues, there was also a clash of cultures inherent in the war between the states, typified by liberal immigration vs. nativist policies; contract industrialism and its legal constraints vs. agricultural landholding and tenantry; and the rule of magistrated law vs. the (unwritten) code of honor between men.
There is a lot more to the North/South divide circa 1860 than just the issue of slavery. Our contemporary national essence is in some ways a distillation of the sometimes uneasy truce that exists between the two sides.
Interesting take. IMO the Stars and Bars can be flown without issue while the battle flag I can see people taking exception to because of how hate groups have warped it's meaning and heritage.
So your main issue with the south that you espouse pride in is that they seceded in the first place??? Makes me wonder how you can support ANY Confederate banner then...
No no!! It's what the secession was about. True, there were many economic reasons that can be cited for southern secession and not exactly friendly economic policy but lets not kid ourselves, the southern economy was built around slavery and thus any economic reasoning for secession was a de facto argument for slavery. Thus my extension that the flag that officially represented the CSA is more a symbol of slavery than the battle flag which was created more as a rallying point for the individual soldiers fighting, most all of whom had not real stake in the preservation of slavery. Therefore, the battle flag is more a reflection of the southern commoner while the stars and bars is a reflection of the wealthy slave holders.
ADD: I don't really "support" any confederate banner anyway.
Last edited by Stormcrow73; 03-11-2008 at 10:05 AM..
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