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Old 06-16-2017, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Ft. Myers
19,719 posts, read 16,734,577 times
Reputation: 41862

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Quote:
Originally Posted by r small View Post
Like the four New York's finest who shot innocent unarmed Amadou Diallo of the Bronx 41 times as he attempted to show them his ID. Four cops firing a total of 41 rounds (they actually managed to hit him with less than half of that number). And this is after 'constant training and re-training'? And there have been numerous similar cases in recent years of cops going ballistic with little or no justification. I have noticed that some of the same people who argue that law abiding citizens should be disarmed because "highly trained professionals" will protect them will argue out of the other side of their mouths that cops are racist thugs who can't be trusted to protect the public. Anti-gun left wingers need to get their story straight. And as for armed citizens not knowing how to de-activate a manual safety, very few people carry guns with safeties anyway. Usually revolvers or striker fired semi-autos which rarely have manual safeties. There are still a few old school folks out there who carry their 1911s "cocked and locked" and I can guarantee you they know how to remove the safety.

Thank you, you just made my point exactly ! If 4 police officers, who have more experience handling weapons than Joe Average, need to fire 41 rounds and miss more than half the time, then how well do you think Granny will fare when she starts to spray ammo all over the place ?

Like I said, I would fare better with the bad guy than a bunch of unskilled, armed citizens who have absolutely no idea what the Hell they are doing, especially in a panic situation where everyone is going crazy. This ain't the old west.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRiWAxMMX5o

 
Old 06-16-2017, 07:48 AM
 
Location: alexandria, VA
16,352 posts, read 8,042,034 times
Reputation: 9726
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY_refugee87 View Post
I carry both a 1911 in 45 and a Glock in 9mm. Sometimes in 357sig.

The 1911, as I'm unholstering, I drop the safety. The moment that my hand has a hold of the grip, thumbs on the safety and its dropped.

He must assume we have hi points 😂 with chintzy safeties
I have a small S&W .380 that I sometimes carry and it has a manual safety. But since the piece is double action only (long 10 lb. trigger pull) there's no need to use the safety so I leave off. Mostly I carry a .38 revolver and I practice with it a fair amount. I could always spend more time at the range. All the people I know that have carry permits enjoy the shooting sports and practice quite a bit. They also tend to be more law abiding than the average citizen.
 
Old 06-16-2017, 07:52 AM
 
Location: NW Nevada
18,132 posts, read 15,544,188 times
Reputation: 17119
Quote:
Originally Posted by don1945 View Post
One of the great myths is that Joe or Jane Average would be able to protect themselves by being armed, if a situation were to present itself. There was a program on TV one time where they tested how quickly and efficiently a class of armed people were able to react to a threat, and they all failed badly.

Police are trained and retrained constantly so that they know what to do in a bad situation. The average person is not......they take a class, get a license, and then probably never fire the gun again. By the time they react to a problem, get the gun unholstered, figure out how to get the safety off, and aim it, they would have been killed. The myth that little church ladies will be able to protect themselves by being armed is just that, a myth.


Here, I found a little video that is pretty interesting on that subject:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h01Z2LLtw7U

It is also a myth that LEOs are any more ready and able to respond to an armed threat any more effectively than an armed citien. Capable armed citizens are not the rarity they are said to be. Most LE shootings wind up with a copious number of rounds fired and a stingy number of fight stopping hits. Cops do NOT constantly train as you state. Unless they are competition shooters or just like to shoot, which most don't.


In the competition circuit my son and I compete in there is only one (now former) cop in a crowd of around 300 people. This circuit runs a gamut of disciplines. Four main ones, those being IPSC/USPSA, ICORE, man on man steel and man on man bowling pins. The first two are move and shoot combat oriented disciplines. They require shooting from cover, hostage situations, multiple target engagements and such. The next two are static, but require speed and accuracy.


There are quite a few "little church ladies" who shoot with us, and they also carry. I would pity any creep who marks them as an easy target. As I've already stated, all the training and skill in the world are a far second to the will and resolve to not be prey. Using a firearm effectively for defense, or any purpose, is a better than 90% mental skill. More often than not one that is present before someone has ever even fired a gun. It would surprise you to actually know how many big, tough seeming cops just don't have that mindset, and how many tiny little ladies (church going or not) that do.


While I completely agree that training and practicing in s high a stress situations as possible if getting a firearm for defense, and can't stress that enough, I stress even more building resolve and mental ability even more. The one who keeps their head in a defensive situation will be the one who prevails. More civilians train in this manner than do cops. It's a fact. High stress competition shooting is dominated by civilians. Very few cops compete. I've heard all manner of excuses from cops as to why that is, but the bottom line is that it's true.


Thus far more civilians than LEOs have developed the skills required to control the adrenaline, keep thinking, and remain as calm as possible is stressful situations that require proper firearms handling. There are far more armed citizens in the real world who are better trained and conditioned than there are police officers. Personally, I would rather have that little lady backing me up,(or vice versa) than just about any cop in the nation. This you would feel yourself if you had any real interaction with the shooting community. Don't believe me? Grab your gear and go sign up for a match. Stack yourself up with those little ladies on the firing line. Let me know when and where if you would. I want to watch.
 
Old 06-16-2017, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Born & Raised DC > Carolinas > Seattle > Denver
9,338 posts, read 7,078,043 times
Reputation: 9487
Quote:
Originally Posted by r small View Post
All the people I know that have carry permits enjoy the shooting sports and practice quite a bit. They also tend to be more law abiding than the average citizen.
Yeah, I usually hit the range twice a month or so. Put 200-300 rounds down range through my preferred CCW weapon, sub-compact Springfield XD 40.
 
Old 06-16-2017, 07:58 AM
 
28,579 posts, read 18,621,964 times
Reputation: 30817
Quote:
Originally Posted by don1945 View Post
Here is my thinking. Would it be better to take your chances with some bad guy with a gun, or do you want 20 armed people spraying bullets all over the place, thinking they are shooting at the right person ? Can you imagine the chaos if a bunch of armed citizens started reacting to a threat and all of those bullets were flying around ? .
Frankly, the latter is better than the former. I certainly would rather have those 20 people spraying bullets than taking my chances unarmed with a bad guy with a gun...I've had to do that before, and it sucks. "Please don't kill me" only works once in a lifetime, and I've used mine up.


My primary intent will be to escape with my family. My concern is making the guy who is specifically targeting me worry about his own life while we escape.
 
Old 06-16-2017, 08:04 AM
 
Location: alexandria, VA
16,352 posts, read 8,042,034 times
Reputation: 9726
Quote:
Originally Posted by don1945 View Post
Thank you, you just made my point exactly ! If 4 police officers, who have more experience handling weapons than Joe Average, need to fire 41 rounds and miss more than half the time, then how well do you think Granny will fare when she starts to spray ammo all over the place ?

Like I said, I would fare better with the bad guy than a bunch of unskilled, armed citizens who have absolutely no idea what the Hell they are doing, especially in a panic situation where everyone is going crazy. This ain't the old west.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRiWAxMMX5o
My point was that many cops are not more experienced handling weapons than the average Joe. Some cops are "gun people" and are experts with firearms. But many are not and spend as little time as possible practicing. Citizens with carry permits tend to be responsible people and know how to handle a firearm.
 
Old 06-16-2017, 08:05 AM
 
10,194 posts, read 6,253,761 times
Reputation: 11267
Quote:
Originally Posted by don1945 View Post
Thank you, you just made my point exactly ! If 4 police officers, who have more experience handling weapons than Joe Average, need to fire 41 rounds and miss more than half the time, then how well do you think Granny will fare when she starts to spray ammo all over the place ?

Like I said, I would fare better with the bad guy than a bunch of unskilled, armed citizens who have absolutely no idea what the Hell they are doing, especially in a panic situation where everyone is going crazy. This ain't the old west.
Very true, and Gabby Gifford's shooting is a perfect example. There were "good guys" there with guns. Why didn't they shoot the gun man? In interviews these people said they were afraid they couldn't get a clear shot, and in all the panic, they might shoot an innocent bystander instead. The shooter was tackled from behind and taken down. The same with the LIRR shooting years ago. Passengers tackled Collin Ferguson from behind.

To quote my husband who does carry (sometimes), "In a situation like that (Gifford's), I could not live with myself if I missed and killed an innocent person instead".

As I said in another post, I saw a NYC Bus Driver shot in the face when I was 6 years old. I still can remember 60 years later all the panic on that bus. Mon threw me on the floor and got on top of me.

Can you just imagine if passengers on a crowded bus or train, starting shooting to take out a gunman???? How would these "Wyatt Earps" feel if they missed and shot a little child instead? Trained LEO's miss, but they won't?
 
Old 06-16-2017, 08:06 AM
 
28,579 posts, read 18,621,964 times
Reputation: 30817
Quote:
Originally Posted by don1945 View Post
Thank you, you just made my point exactly ! If 4 police officers, who have more experience handling weapons than Joe Average, need to fire 41 rounds and miss more than half the time, then how well do you think Granny will fare when she starts to spray ammo all over the place ?

So you agree the police are not protection.

Quote:
Like I said, I would fare better with the bad guy than a bunch of unskilled, armed citizens who have absolutely no idea what the Hell they are doing, especially in a panic situation where everyone is going crazy. This ain't the old west.



Before asserting so confidently that you would absolutely fare better, have you actually had a mugger holding the barrel of a gun against your kidney?
 
Old 06-16-2017, 08:09 AM
 
28,579 posts, read 18,621,964 times
Reputation: 30817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Very true, and Gabby Gifford's shooting is a perfect example. There were "good guys" there with guns. Why didn't they shoot the gun man? In interviews these people said they were afraid they couldn't get a clear shot, and in all the panic, they might shoot an innocent bystander instead. The shooter was tackled from behind and taken down. The same with the LIRR shooting years ago. Passengers tackled Collin Ferguson from behind.

To quote my husband who does carry (sometimes), "In a situation like that (Gifford's), I could not live with myself if I missed and killed an innocent person instead".

As I said in another post, I saw a NYC Bus Driver shot in the face when I was 6 years old. I still can remember 60 years later all the panic on that bus. Mon threw me on the floor and got on top of me.

Can you just imagine if passengers on a crowded bus or train, starting shooting to take out a gunman???? How would these "Wyatt Earps" feel if they missed and shot a little child instead? Trained LEO's miss, but they won't?
Actually, you contradicted the person you think you're agreeing with. You stated cases in which armed citizens properly decided they did not have sufficient opportunity to use their weapons, and didn't.
 
Old 06-16-2017, 08:15 AM
 
Location: alexandria, VA
16,352 posts, read 8,042,034 times
Reputation: 9726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Very true, and Gabby Gifford's shooting is a perfect example. There were "good guys" there with guns. Why didn't they shoot the gun man? In interviews these people said they were afraid they couldn't get a clear shot, and in all the panic, they might shoot an innocent bystander instead. The shooter was tackled from behind and taken down. The same with the LIRR shooting years ago. Passengers tackled Collin Ferguson from behind.

To quote my husband who does carry (sometimes), "In a situation like that (Gifford's), I could not live with myself if I missed and killed an innocent person instead".

As I said in another post, I saw a NYC Bus Driver shot in the face when I was 6 years old. I still can remember 60 years later all the panic on that bus. Mon threw me on the floor and got on top of me.

Can you just imagine if passengers on a crowded bus or train, starting shooting to take out a gunman???? How would these "Wyatt Earps" feel if they missed and shot a little child instead? Trained LEO's miss, but they won't?
Wouldn't this suggest that these armed citizens used good judgement by not trying to take out a crazed gunman in a confused and crowded situation? Like I said, citizens who legally carry tend to be rational and responsible folks.
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