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Yes, it was a kangaroo court, but it does seem consistent with his character that he probably did steal the sign. His own father said he was a "thrill seeker", and it also falls within the pattern of what fraternity guys do as far as pranks. Also, since Otto was only on a 3 day trip to NK, it seems the North Koreans wouldn't have that much time to pick someone out and frame them. My best guess is that he did commit the theft, although a 15 year sentence was totally unjust.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla
[Originally Posted by jojajn
Did you listen to Otto's confession? You are making a lot of assumptions without knowing the facts. Lets list your facts:
- Otto was a thrill seeker.
-pattern of what fraternity guys do]
There's also the video. Although it's a little fuzzy, it does look like him. And if the North Koreans wanted to set someone up, they wouldn't bother with making a video anyway.
I just want to clarify some things here (just in general...the wall of text below is not just aimed at you).
A lot of people think Otto Warmbier actually stole the poster (or, at least, are willing to entertain the possibility). That "poster", by the way, if you watch the CCTV footage, is not the kind that you could roll up and tuck away into a suit case. It is more of a giant wall placard that takes up a good portion of the hallway, and is mounted on a thick backing. How would you pack that in a suitcase? The notion that Warmbier would try to smuggle it back into the U.S. is preposterous on those grounds alone, never mind the dubious potato-quality video where you can't see the alleged perpetrator's face, or even tell his race or age. So, in my opinion, Warmbier was completely set up.
Also, as far as frats go, Warmbier was a brother at Theta Chi, but this is NOT the fraternity at the center of the story. It is the Z Society, which he was NOT a member of. (The Z Society confirms this, and also that he was never invited to join. Also, the Z Society isn't really an Animal House style frat.)
The biggest point for me is the full press conference of Otto Warmbier's "confession" from February 2016. Listen to the words he is reciting (the syntax and word structure), and most importantly, the laughably insane and preposterous "confessions". It is pretty obvious that a North Korean translator basically wrote him a carefully scripted monologue. A theatrical monologue. An epic Greek tragedy of a monologue, complete with choreographed fist pounding on the table, imploring hand gestures, pulling of Kleenex from suit pocket, sufficiently tearful voice and mawkish demeanor. He is acting (and because he's not an actor, he's not doing a very good job at it...he's not even crying real tears). This is NOT a shot against Warmbier. What I am saying is that he was arrested on January 2nd, and the clown show trial was in the last days of February. I'm pretty sure what happened is that North Korea gave him this theatrical monologue, and told him he had 2 months to memorize and practice it, and it better be Oscar worthy. Or, at least, worthy of a Korean soap opera. He was probably told, "DO IT, OR ELSE", and also probably, "DO IT, AND WE'LL PROBABLY LET YOU GO." Just say Uncle, kid. Be extra obsequious. You'll lay it on thick, if you know what's good for you. And Otto Warmbier probably had hope that this would be enough to free him. And so he did it.
The summary of the "confession", and Otto's motivation for the theft, as presented in the press conference/trial, is thus:
Otto comes from a poor & destitute family. His father barely makes enough money to sustain the family. Otto is the oldest son and, ultimately, is responsible for taking care of his parents and his 2 younger siblings. One day, his childhood friend's mother (a woman named Sharon Webb), approached him with a lucrative offer. If Otto would travel to North Korea and steal a "political slogan" for Sharon's church to hang on its walls as a trophy against communism, she would reward him with $10,000 for a used car he would desperately need to drive back and forth between home, school and work. In the event that Otto did not make it out of North Korea, Sharon Web would compensate Otto's parents in the amount of $200,000, so they could, among other things, at least pay for the younger Warmbier childrens' college tuitions.
Why would this Sharon, his childhood friend's mom, propose such a thing? Because she is a deaconess at this church (the Friendship United Methodist Church of Wyoming, Ohio). This church is uber wealthy and it is working closely with the American government, as well as the Z Society, to spread Christianity and anti-communist sentiments in North Korea.
And the Z Society is a secret society at the University of Virginia where Otto is a student. It is a TOP SECRET society. If you can manage to get it in, you will be wealthy for life. Otto, coming from a very financially challenged family, was eager to join the Z Society for this reason. But they, too, wanted him to go to North Korea and carry out some "brave act" that would prove him worthy of the Z Society. Also, the Z Society has ties to the CIA, and is ALSO working with the American government to undermine North Korea.
Basically, the Friendship United Methodist Church of Ohio, and the Z Society of the University of Virginia, Charlottesville, conspired together, along with the American government, to use Otto Warmbier as a tool to infiltrate and undermine North Korea. The Friendship United Methodist Church of Ohio was especially egregious in taking advantage of the poor, and vulnerable Otto. Because he is not a "believer" (i.e., he is a Jew), this church knew they could deny any involvement with him, if he were ever caught.
Below are some choice excerpts from Otto's "confession". These are verbatim.
Quote:
On January 1, 2016, I committed the crime of taking out a political slogan from the Staff-only area of the Yanggakdo International Hotel. The slogan inspires the people's love for their system. The task was given by the Friendship United Methodist Church, at the encouragement of the Z Society, and the connivance of the United States administration, I came to commit this crime task. The aim of this crime was to harm the work ethic and motivation of the Korean people. This was a very foolish aim. Growing up in the United States, I was taught that the DPR Korea is a mysterious, isolated communist nation from education and mass media. This made an innocent minded adventurous young man like myself want to show my bravery to improve my reputation and show a Western victory over the DPR Korea.
Quote:
I will now address why the Friendship United Methodist Church gave me this task. The Friendship United Methodist Church is located in Cincinnati OH, United States. I have known about this church since my childhood because I grew up in Cincinnati OH, United States. You can easily find detailed information on this church from the internet. The Friendship United Methodist Church is not a typical church. It is very wealthy with $42 million dollars. That is why the United States administration has very close ties with this church. This church made a plan to enter into anti-Christian countries which, uh, the United States administration dislikes, and it is currently implementing this plan. Several Democratic congressmen regularly visit this church to collect political fund donations, and to assure their continued support of this church’s policy. It is said that in 2008, around $10 million dollars, around, um, 2-3% of President Barack Obama's total election costs, was collected from this church. That is one of the reasons why the United States administration works closely with the Friendship United Methodist Church and connives at all acts including my crime. The United Sates administration and the politicians use the Friendship United Methodist Church to harm the DPR Korea by all dirty way and means. The Friendship United Methodist Church gave me my crime task, which is closely matched to the United States administration's hostile policy against the DPR Korea in order to spread Christianity in the DPR Korea and to increase the church's support from the United States administration. Therefore my crime is the expected output of the United States administration's consistent hostile policy against the DPR Korea, and its implementation by the Friendship United Methodist Church. I was easily manipulated because of my family's severe financial difficulties. And, because I am a nonbeliever, the church knew it could deny its involvement if my crime were to become public news.
Quote:
I entirely beg for forgiveness. I apologize to every one of the millions of Korean people. And I bet that you see how I was used and manipulated. My reward for my crime was so much smaller than the reward that the Friendship United Methodist Church and the Z Society get from the United States administration. The United States administration used me like many before me. I am a victim of the United States administration's consistent hostile policies against the DPR Korea. I wish that United States citizens who may follow in my precedence never NEVER allow yourselves to be allured by the United States administration. I have been very impressed by the Korean government's humanitarian treatment of severe criminals like myself, and their very fair and square legal procedures in the DPR Korea. Through my tour in this country I have come to see that reality in the DPR Korea is very different from the state of evils that the West tagged. And I have come to see that the current human rights issues in the DPR Korea, consistently highlighted by the United States administration, is nothing more than an excuse to harm and to eventually overthrow the government of the DPR Korea. My dear, United States citizens. Seeing is believing, as the proverb goes. Please come to Pyonyang which one United States citizen long ago called an eastern Jerusalem. Then, you will believe me.
^^WTF??? The link to the press conference below, because I don't blame you if you don't believe me.
It's nonsensical fiction. A ridiculous fantasy story obviously cooked up by the North Koreans. Some of it, if you look into it, is just out right lies. For example, Warmbier does not come from a poor & destitute family that would jump at the chance for Otto to get a crappy $10,000 used car as a reward. During the press conference, Otto is made to recite his home address. This is a real estate forum, so we all know how to look up RE stats. His family lives in a 5-bedroom house in a tony part of Ohio. His parents are NOT poor and struggling to make ends meet. His father is a small business owner who is so successful, he has been featured in Forbes and the NY Times. His business is quite lucrative.
Also, the Z Society is not some dark, mysterious organization of espionage. It is a 'semi-secret ring society' at UVA. They are a philanthropic society. Cream of the crop and kind of preppy, but also kind of on the liberal side, kind of hippy dippy, concerned with social justice. Neither this organization (or any other frat at UVA) was telling Otto Warmbier to go to North Korea to steal some wall hanging.
In addition to all that, Warmbier is prompted to say what great, humanitarian, luxury accommodations he is receiving. Top notch everything. Great medical treatment. Top notch food. Top notch everything. There is no subtlety whatsoever. This is North Korea crossing all its t's and dotting all its i's.
There is all kinds of absurd fabrications in the "confession". Therefore, I think the whole theft accusation was also pulled straight out of Kim Jong's kimchi-farting pigbutt.
The whole thing was a set up. Otto Warmbier didn't steal a damn thing. I suspect the North Koreans chose him (out of the 10 tourists in his group that all went home without incident) because he is a corn-fed looking Midwestern all American boy that would fetch a pretty price, one way or the other. I don't think they intended to cause him to go into a coma way back in March of 2016. I think they intended to torture him just enough to make him look ragged and cause alarm, probably eventually trotting him out in front of another theatrical press conference. They wanted to keep him alive as a bargaining chip. But they messed up big time. After he fell into a coma, they would not let anybody near him. That's why nobody knew until last week that he had been in a coma since March/April 2016. That was the only way they could maintain their leverage in case they wanted to make some move. Wasn't North Korea tinkering around with H bombs or nukes (or whatever the hell it was) in December 2015 and January 2016? The US was talking sanctions. The taking of Otto Warmbier was highly calculated.
I understand the sentiment that it was his fault...he should jave used some common sense and stayed away. But I also can understand that he (and hoards of others just like him) see videos and social media from tour companies, travel vloggers and YouTube stars, and they think that North Korea isn't as bad as people are making it out to be. There is a proliferation of this stuff in the 2010s like never before. It is dangerous. Whether these adventure seeking vloggers are aware of it or not, they are complicit in helping to spread the propaganda that enables North Korea to have their pick of the litter when it comes to kidnap victims. Maybe the Otto Warmbier tragedy will be a wake up call for everyone. But I doubt it. Below is just the tip of the iceberg.
And as far as I'm concerned, Fred Warmbier has carte blanche to say and feel whatever the hell he goddamn wants, and as loud as he goddamn wants.
But Donald Jr. posted an inflammatory, opportunistic tweet, and Trump Sr., in typical man baby fashion, retweeted Jr.'s tweet. He shouldn't be using this tragedy to prop himself up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa
Another "blame America" post. Frankly this is the kind of thing Teddy Roosevelt or Harry Truman would have handled with aplomb.
There's nothing "classy" about blaming the West.
I am not blaming America. Or the West. Where do you get that from my post? I'm not even blaming Otto Warmbier for being "stupid", "arrogant", etc. etc. for voluntarily going to North Korea, much like the majority of this thread, on both sides of the aisle.
I think these North Korea adventure tour groups are predatory, reckless, and mercenary, and I think they target naive, young Americans. Most of these tour companies are based overseas and not American. The one that Otto Warmbier used was based in China and run by expat Brits, Aussies, etc. etc. I think the reason Americans get kidnapped more often is because they are more valuable to North Korea. But North Korea is happy to have these adventure tour companies portray it as this exotic, desirable vacation destination.
But I get it. You didn't like what I had to say about Trump, so I am not a good little American.
What disgusting publications these liberal sites are. As Otto was suffering brain damage at the hands of the North Koreans, they were publishing articles mocking his white privilege and delighting in the fact that he was being harshly punished. And they didn't even bother to remove these articles now, after his death.
I'll give you that HuffPo and Salon are garbage. But what do you think Heat Street is? It's also garbage.
If liberal garbage sites fill you with such disgust and disdain, maybe also stay away from Heat Street, the self-proclaimed 'libertarian HuffPo'. You know it was founded by Louise Mensch, right? The same lady who now rights for Patribotics.
There more I read and hear about the case, the more I think there is something weird with it.
Actually watching the father on TV he seems quite normal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Dakota
What about the strange society that offered Otto $200,000 and why the parents do not want any further investigations on his body?
I hadn't heard about either of those situations. As far as the money offer what society is this? And as far as the body I hadn't heard this before. Can you supply a link? And FYI my own religion frowns upon post-death procedures and disturbances on corpses. (Edit, I found out in the last few minutes that the Warmbier family is Jewish, as am I. We do not routinely allow autopsies. In fact when my father died in January 1973 we tried unsuccessfully to block one. They claimed it was for "medical research" even though the death trajectory of colorectal cancer is well known).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Dakota
It is pointless to blame NK if it is not even known what exactly happened to him. They just do not kill people without reason bzw. without a certain purpose behind it.
I think we have a pretty good idea as to what happened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Dakota
There were also no medical evidences that Otto was physically tortured. Now some stupid hawks are calling for revenge, without even knowing what happened? Just because somebody was breaking the law of the country he visited and got sentenced according to their law? Doesn't make sense.
@snowmountains: Something like 'Let's arm ourselves strongly with Kim Jong Il patriotism'.
NK can't have it both ways, i.e. access to the civilized world for things that they want such as U.N. membership, travel for their leaders, and imports, and yet have a savage, unreasoned system of "justice" for visitors and possibly for their own citizens.
How sad that you continue to defend Obama and his indifference to Warmbier and other Anerican political prisoners. Perhaps if Warmbier had been a traitor like Bergdahl he would have fancied you and Obama.
Congratulations. You win dumbest post in the thread.
I'm actually going to rep LoveToRow's post. He makes a very good point. We traded three or so jihadis being held in Guantanamo for Bergdahl, and did nothing for Warmbier. That shows the Obama administration's priorities beautifully. Same with his surrender to Iran while throwing Israel under the bus. There are all kinds of examples of Obama adhering to the U.S.'s enemies, giving them aid and comfort, which scaring the dickens out of the U.S.'s allies.
In fact one of his first moves was to return Churchill's bust to Queen Elizabeth.
Actually, Donald Trump and his team had been working on his release for months, and it was Trump that got Sgt. Tahmooressi released from Mexico. Sadly, Obama did nothing, or this might not have been the outcome.
The Obama team didn't want to shift the focus from global warming and other "world topics" to deal with a "particular" issue such as the safety of Americans abroad.
Despite warnings from the state department NOT to visit North Korean, every year people ignore this advise and every year someone is throw in jail, guilty or not in North Korea. What people fail to understand is this is a dictatorship where Americans have no rights. If the ruling class thinks they can use your stupid ass to get leverage with officials from other counties, they will happily toss you in prison for 20 years even if you completely innocent of all charges. You then become a chip on the board, North Korean to the United States, you give us 20,000 tons of wheat in exchange for releasing John Doe from his 20 years hard labor, or something to that effect. I have zero sympathy for Warmbier, he was a spoiled brat that should have known better.
I won't call a dead person names but I agree 100%. Of all the places to visit? This is like going to Syria to chill with Isis for Spring Break. You can't go on these extreme vacations and then blame America for not getting you out of harms way.
What happened to personal responsibility?
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