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Old 07-22-2017, 07:49 PM
 
Location: Honolulu/DMV Area/NYC
30,612 posts, read 18,192,641 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
Was the meat from his kill donated, and since when do Lions need to be killed to control populations? What's the point in killing a Lion? For what?
If he followed the law (and there is nothing to suggest that he didn't), then yes his meat was donated. From a meat perspective alone, much of the perceived criticism against game hunting goes out the window. The whole point about population control I'm not well versed in, but I dont need that point to convince me that game hunting isn't the big evil some proclaim it to be (particularly those who are meat eaters themselves) .
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Old 07-22-2017, 07:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NLVgal View Post
I understand the motives of the locals. They need the money or the food, or they need to reduce predation of their livestock. I don't get the thrill the trophy hunters receive from killing these animals when the game is rigged in their favor. Bloodlust?
Not just predation of their livestock. Look up how many people are killed by lions. One site said 200+ per year. Elephants kill 2,000+ per year, mainly in Asia, but they are endangered. Lions are not.
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Old 07-22-2017, 08:07 PM
 
26,694 posts, read 14,555,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
Killing animals for anything other than food or population control is pathetic. Killing anything for trophies is b.s.

You kill a lion, you should be forced to eat it!
What about killing for our own comfort? That's totally cool, right?

How about torturing animals for our own enjoyment? That's wonderful too right?
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Old 07-22-2017, 08:10 PM
 
26,694 posts, read 14,555,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
Was the meat from his kill donated, and since when do Lions need to be killed to control populations? What's the point in killing a Lion? For what?
When? Every day. Not just lions, elephants too as they are the most destructive animals to a conservation.
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Old 07-22-2017, 08:17 PM
 
34,619 posts, read 21,598,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburban_Guy View Post
Just because it's legal doesn't make it right.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/researche...075823325.html
Since when is a 6-year-old lion a CUB?
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Old 07-22-2017, 08:20 PM
 
34,619 posts, read 21,598,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
since when do Lions need to be killed to control populations?
Often.

Here:

Culling to Conserve: A Hard Truth for Lion Conservation – National Geographic Society (blogs)
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Old 07-22-2017, 08:20 PM
 
7,520 posts, read 2,806,221 times
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Since when do we in the US have the right to tell other countries what to do with their animal population? If they do it to help the locals then that is their business. If they did it just for the $ that is their business too. Anyone here that eats meat and is complaining ought to take a look at some slaughter house videos and how that is done by the billions each year. I appreciate everything any animal provides to me and my family.
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Old 07-22-2017, 08:25 PM
 
56,988 posts, read 35,179,016 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
If he followed the law (and there is nothing to suggest that he didn't), then yes his meat was donated. From a meat perspective alone, much of the perceived criticism against game hunting goes out the window. The whole point about population control I'm not well versed in, but I dont need that point to convince me that game hunting isn't the big evil some proclaim it to be (particularly those who are meat eaters themselves) .
Game hunting for the hell of it IS evil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katygirl68 View Post
Not just predation of their livestock. Look up how many people are killed by lions. One site said 200+ per year. Elephants kill 2,000+ per year, mainly in Asia, but they are endangered. Lions are not.
Africans have lived in proximity to Lions since forever. If a Lion needs to be killed, they are MORE than capable of doing it. They were killing Lions before they ever heard of a hunting rifle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
What about killing for our own comfort? That's totally cool, right?

How about torturing animals for our own enjoyment? That's wonderful too right?
Is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
When? Every day. Not just lions, elephants too as they are the most destructive animals to a conservation.
If given enough space, elephants won't destroy anything unnecessarily.
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Old 07-22-2017, 08:29 PM
 
26,694 posts, read 14,555,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
Game hunting for the hell of it IS evil.

Africans have lived in proximity to Lions since forever. If a Lion needs to be killed, they are MORE than capable of doing it. They were killing Lions before they ever heard of a hunting rifle.

Is it?


If given enough space, elephants won't destroy anything unnecessarily.
This is not copyrighted and the author wants this to be cited as much as possible.


ANTI - HUNTERS, HUNTERS, NON-HUNTERS & FRIENDS:

My name is Aaron Neilson, I am Sabrina Corgatelli’s boyfriend and I am writing this on her page - to try and give some factual and insightful info as it pertains to the conservation benefits of regulated sport hunting in Africa. I urge you all to read / share this entire message. Please do so with an open mind, free of emotional distress and perhaps this will help shed some light on how hunting can/does benefit wildlife and the habitat in which they live - across the Dark Continent (Africa).
I think its vitally important for me to qualify my experience, thus you can see I am speaking from a position of fact based knowledge - gained from actual field experience, not simply regurgitating articles, quotes, and posts made by others around the world. In my opinion, "Experience is Knowledge, Knowledge is Power!"
Since 1995 I have been to the Continent of Africa 36 times, 35 of those on Big Game Hunting Safaris in 8 different countries across southern, eastern and central Africa. To include - South Africa (Limpopo Province, Eastern Cape) Namibia (Namib desert, Caprivi) Botswana (Xai-Xai, Bottlepan, Chobe Enclave, Sankuyo, Okavango Delta) Zimbabwe (Gwayi Valley, Zambezi Valley, Save Conservancy, Malapati, Sengwe I & II) Mozambique (Sabie Game Reserve, Niassa Province) Zambia (Kafue, Chiawa, Luangwa Valley, Bangweulu, Blue Lagoon) Tanzania (Masailand, Rukwa Game Reserve, Lukwati Game Reserve, Rungwa Game Reserve, Kilombero Valley, Inyonga) Central African Republic (Chinko Valley & North Chadian border) I have spent over 1,000 days in the African bush, and I have spent over 600 days hunting, observing, studying and learning the African Lion - on exactly 20 different lion hunting safaris, where I have "killed" 15 African Lions – more than most to say the least.
In 2010 I completed the exam process in Tanzania, east Africa to qualify for a full Professional Hunter's license - otherwise known as a "PH" license. Only a handful of Americans have ever done so!
18 months later myself, and Dr. Lane Easter (Texas) co-founded the Lion Conservation Task Force. We single handedly brought the hunting community and the scientific community together - by gathering the world's leading scientific experts on the African Lion to help us co-author what is now known as the "Huntable Lion" definition. This definition simply states a huntable lion is one that is not known to be a pride male - WITH DEPENDENT CUBS, and is ideally 6 years of age, or older. Thus insinuating a pride male is OK to hunt, as long as he's not known to have dependent cubs.
The scientists who helped us co-author this definition are as follows: Dr. Craig Packer (Serengeti Lion Project) Dr. Luke Hunter (President of Panthera) Dr. Colleen Begg (Niassa carnivore Project) Dr. Paula White (Zambian Lion Project) Dr. Karyl Whitman (Wildlife Biologist - Lion Expert). All are considerable experts in the field of the African Lion, with decades of in-field experience amongst them. In my opinion, Dr. Paula White has more on-the-ground experience with true wild lions, in actual hunting blocks across Africa - than anyone on planet earth. Her studies were NOT based on lions in National Parks - rather every hunting block across the country of Zambia that has/had legal lion hunting. I personally have spent over 30 days in the Zambian bush with Dr. White - she's truly an expert in her field. Dr. Begg does the same, as she too monitors lion hunting practices in/around the Niassa National Reserve – Mozambique. Hopefully the above gives you all some insight into my experience in this matter, it is extensive!!!
SABRINA'S HUNT:
With that said, let's start with the safari Sabrina and I did last month in the Limpopo Province of S.A., one that has obviously caused some controversy. Here's the facts!
We hunted a 46,000 acre private reserve - one that is OWNED exclusively by the "local" community, in which the tribal chief has granted permission to the safari operator to conduct said business activities on their land!
FACTS REGARDING THIS RESERVE:
1. Prior to the safari operator establishing a relationship with the community, the property in question was VOID of all game species - period!
2. Years ago the safari operator at considerable expense to himself, game fenced the entire property (which is done more so to keep local poachers out - than game in) and invested in multiple game species to be established on the reserve.
3. Today the reserve has close to 20 different species of game, numbering in the thousands - all of which live completely self-sustaining within the reserve. These animals are privately owned by the reserve / community and are 100% financially supported ONLY by dollars generated by the reserve and its business practices. The game on this reserve does NOT belong to everyone, it belongs to those who are working to, and willing to support them financially.
4. IMPORTANT NOTE: Initially this reserve was exclusively a photographic operation, NO hunting was allowed. After 3 years, the decision to begin hunting was made - as the photographic operation simply could NOT generate enough income to support the financial needs of the reserve, period! Like it or not, that's an absolute fact! One lion hunt here, generates the same dollar amount as what they were generating from 20 photographic safaris - again, just the facts. Proving in this case that without a doubt, non-consumptive use wasn't cutting it!
5. Currently the reserve employees 36 full-time staff members, 31 of which are from the local (black) community. Anyone who says the local communities do not benefit from hunting is factually incorrect.
Currently the community receives 50% of the annual revenue generated from operational activities on the reserve. Again, anyone saying local communities do not benefit from hunting is factually incorrect. Prior to said activities - the community received NOTHING, as the land was void of any money generating activity. 31 less community members were employed, no food was provided, no revenue to the community and there was no game at all!!!
6. Currently the reserve has an annual operating financial necessity of roughly $500,000.00 US dollars per year. This is what it takes to run the reserve each year - period! A large portion of that is dedicated to the 2 anti-poaching teams that literally work 7 days per week - trying to fight against and keep out the poachers who are constantly trying to get into the reserve. I personally found a zebra that was caught dead in a snare - a horrible, painful and lengthy way to die!!!
7. During our 12 Day Safari, the reserve generated $59,800.00 in revenue - and sacrificed for example, 1 old giraffe bull (past breeding prime) from a herd of over 250 giraffes on the reserve. A property that prior to operation had ZERO giraffes, or any other wildlife!!! We hunted multiple game species, only one of each.
The reserve on average conducts 10 - 12 / 2 week hunting safaris per year, in which the average hunter takes 7 game species of various kinds. 12 x 7 = 84. 84 animals on average - per year are hunted from a total population of over 2,000. That's roughly 4% of the population of game species on the reserve per year. Wildlife on the reserve grows at a greater rate per year than that all on their own. Additional harvesting / culling is required in some cases, simply to keep the reserve's ecosystem in a healthy balance. Otherwise the game would literally eat themselves out of house and home. It’s commonly referred to as wildlife/habitat management.
8. Another example, the reserve on average only receives 1 Leopard hunting permit - every two years. Even though the reserve is lousy with leopards, trust me - I saw their spoor on many occasions. Everything is regulated with wildlife management in mind.
9. No game species on the reserve are "canned" or "drugged", at all. Every animal - including lions are free to roam the reserve at their leisure. One look at the thick bush of the Limpopo province will tell you the wildlife does in fact often have the advantage. I did hunt a lion on the reserve, but I simply would not partake in "canned" lion hunting - I have ZERO interest in it myself. This was the one and only time I have ever hunted a lion on such a reserve, and I found it to be very challenging and under what I would consider to be "fair chase" conditions.
10. All meat from hunted species was used for human consumption, including the lion - we ate some ourselves. Meat not used by staff members - is giving to the community during the course of each safari. A much needed source of protein and an added benefit to consumptive use management practices.
Bottom Line - hunting in places like South Africa over the past 40 years has been solely responsible for the monstrous growth in wildlife populations and this reserve is a prime example of that. They have taken what was once over grazed cattle pasture, void of all game, and created a wildlife sanctuary that now has over 2,000 game animals of various species, provides much needed employment / revenue to the local community, as well as food, and has given the locals a reason to see value in the wildlife. In the past 40 years this example has now played out thousands of times across South Africa - leading to a game population of over 18 million, from what once was roughly 580,000 just four decades ago. Give something a value and people will want more of it, not less. One can argue that if they like, but I've seen the results of this with my own two eyes - and facts don't lie.

AFRICA IN GENERAL & THE AFRICAN LION:
Firstly - neither the lion the leopard, the giraffe, or the elephant are "endangered species", period! Never have been, hopefully never will be. If you are unfamiliar with this fact - look it up. CITES administers such listings, verifying this info is simple.
The difficulty in this entire argument comes from the fact that very few who choose to take a position or comment, whether in favor of, or against hunting, really know the facts! They don't know the facts, because they have little to no - on the ground experience in wild Africa. When I refer to "wild" Africa, I don't mean Africa's National Parks - where "Cecil" and the gang hung out, or where hundreds of vehicles per day harass the heck out of the game (Serengeti / Ngorongoro) until it has no choice but to become conditioned to human disruption in their daily lives. I don't even mean places like where Sabrina and I hunted in South Africa. I'm talking about truly wild, uninhabitable, far off, remote places of Africa that few people ever see - places I have spent hundreds of days in myself.
But for argument sake, let’s first start with just an example of Africa's recent mistakes as they pertain to National Parks. Let’s briefly take Kruger National Park as an example (yes I've been there). The Kruger is roughly 5 million acres, although the largest national park in the world, its limits still exist. Thus proper management of wildlife within its confines is necessary. For decades the park conducted annual culling of elephants, they did so with the overall protection of the park's ecosystem and all of its wildlife in mind. As times changed, and a more liberal mind set prevailed - the culling practices were eliminated.
The park long since had an estimated carrying capacity of roughly 7,000 elephants. A number that was believed to be sustainable, as well as beneficial to the ecosystem and all park inhabitants. Since culling was eliminated, the park's elephant population has sky-rocketed to an estimated 17,000 today. A number that is grossly too high, and as biologists like Ron Thomson will tell you - is having grave and harmful, negative effects on the ecosystem of the Kruger. An animal as large as an African elephant does monstrous damage to the habitat and vegetation in which they live. To confine them in anyway (even 5 million acres) and then believe that population control is not necessary - is simply irresponsible wildlife management. Thomson and many others, have urged the park to not only resume culling activities, but have insisted that unless the population is reduced to roughly 2,500 elephants quickly - the negative impacts upon the habitat may be irreversible.
BOTSWANA: No-where is there a greater problem of over-population of elephants than the country of Botswana. In fact, the elephants in the northern half of Botswana have already done irreversible damage to much of the country's ecosystem and precious wildlife resources. The same country that stopped all lion hunting in September 2007 (I in fact hunted the very last legal lion likely ever taken in Botswana in 2007) and stopped all hunting outside of private land within the past two years. By the way, over 100 lions are still killed every single year by wildlife authorities as “problem animal control” in Botswana – and ZERO financial benefit is gained from it by anyone. When lion hunting was last being conducted in 2007 the average price of a lion hunt in Botswana was roughly $90,000.00 as they were only offered on a VERY limited basis. Each hunting block received a maximum of 1 lion permit per year, baiting was not allowed (only tracking) all males had to be 6 yrs old or older and pride males were off limits – regardless of dependent cubs or not. It was very well regulated/managed, roughly 15 – 20 lions were hunted per year (country wide) thus allowing $1.3 million - $1.8 million in gross revenue generation annually, money for the local communities, jobs for locals, etc. Now instead we have well over 100 lions per year killed (often poisoned as the locals NO LONGER value the lion, he’s worth nothing now) and absolutely nothing to show for it other than a dead lion!! Logical, I don’t think so? If anyone questions my info, contact Debbie Peake – Muchaba Developments in Maun, Botswana (she’ll know who I am).

Unlike the masses, as I mentioned initially - I have been all over northern Botswana and I have experienced the devastation first hand. The carrying capacity of elephants in Botswana upon the environment is estimated at roughly 70,000. However the current population is roughly 150,000 - more than double what the ecosystem can handle. I've been in full-time hunting blocks where I have personally seen / filmed more than 100 elephants per day! When one visits the water holes that are used by these massive beasts - getting within 1/2 mile of one is obvious as the forestry devastation is huge. It simply looks as though someone has detonated a nuclear bomb - everything is destroyed. I've seen what was once formerly savannah grasslands turned completely into nothing more than Mopani scrub, for miles. This simply from years of too many elephants moving through the areas and transferring Mopani seeds through their dung. This mopani scrub (once savannahs) that formerly held good numbers of plains game species like sable and roan, are now void of most anything other than elephant and some buffalo. All of this because the elephant population has been allowed to get totally out of hand, without the use of regulated / conservation minded hunting as a management tool. Eventually it will collapse, past examples of the same have proved that. Just look to the Kaibab National Forest in northern Arizona in the early 1900's – it’s very well documented.
Now unfortunately however, the elephants and other wildlife are starting to really suffer in Botswana. Poaching is hugely on the rise, elephants in particular - as hunters, hunting companies, and anti-poaching units are no longer afield to look after any sort of regulated off-take. Lions are being killed at a rate of over 100 per year, the local communities that benefitted hugely from all of Botswana's regulated elephant hunting are now getting NOTHING. No jobs, no income, no meat, nothing! Yes, the elephants do need to be culled, thus poaching will take some time there to have a negative effect on elephant numbers - but in the meantime the only ones benefitting from said illegal activities are corrupt law enforcement, corrupt politicians, poaching syndicates, and the Chinese who want nothing more than to rape / pillage the entire continent of Africa.
KENYA'S WILDLIFE DISASTER:
How about we look at one long lasting / negative example of the closure of sport hunting upon a country's wildlife resources. There is no greater example of this than KENYA, in east Africa. Since closing "hunting" in 1977, this country has lost over 70% of its wildlife - country wide. Hunting had nothing to do with that, in fact the opposite occurred. Without the protection / value provided by hunting and hunters dollars, the wildlife was de-valued and left un-protected. Now of course you don't have to believe me - so why not contact Dr. Laurence Frank and ask him directly.
Dr. Laurence G. Frank Living With Lions Project Director - Dr. Frank has been a research associate at the University of California, Berkeley since 1984, first as part of the Berkeley Hyena Project and currently in the Museum of Vertebrate Zoology. He has worked on predators in Kenya for forty years, including twenty years studying the behavioral ecology and endocrinology of the spotted hyena before turning to conservation research.
I have personally met Dr. Frank, and I have sat in a closed door meeting of roughly 20 conservationists, hunters, doctors and scientists with Dr. Frank - and listened to him preach to all of us the negative effects he saw brought to bear upon Kenya's wildlife after the closing of regulated sport hunting. A very simple analogy exists in Africa - if it pays, its stays. Anything that has no value, especially to the local/native population will be eliminated. In some cases - such as ivory poaching, the only value they have is DEATH!! Look no further than the horror being brought upon the elephants in Tanzania over the past several years. The poaching syndicates are slaughtering them at the rate of 23 per day, we must put a stop to it now!!! Eliminating regulated / conservation minded hunting will only make it worse! No one will be there to help at all. In almost every case I know of in Tanzania – hunting operators have self-imposed a stop to elephant hunting in some or all of their blocks.
HUNTING'S ROLL IN WILDLIFE CONSERVATION IN AFRICA:
This is a broad scope, but I will try to condense this into an understandable version - and hopefully not too long.
To truly see, believe and understand the role that hunters and hunting plays in the conservation of Africa's wildlife and wild places, one must experience it for themselves - period! I am going to use the country of Tanzania as my example, a place I have been many times.
Tanzania has 32 Game Reserves that cover 10.4% of the country's land mass. Game reserves are not the only areas where hunting is allowed in Tanzania, hunting is allowed in Game Controlled Areas and Open Areas too. Including National parks, 32% of Tanzania's land mass is utilized in some degree for wlidlife/habitat protection. A full 21% (1/5) of the country's land mass is utilized as a hunting area, meaning ONLY hunters / hunting dollars are there protecting the wildlife in these regions. Tanzania also has the largest wild lion population of any country in Africa - estimated to be roughly 16,000 - 18,000 country wide. The claim that Africa as a whole has less than 20,000 lions is bogus, a false claim made originally by Dereck Joubert in an attempt to heighten the scare - thus bringing more attention (MONEY) to his movie "The Last Lions". Let’s be clear, Dereck Joubert is NOT a wildlife scientist - he's a film maker, with little to no experience outside of one single location - Botswana's Okavango Delta. He needed a problem to bring awareness to his movie, so he made one. "Panthera" on the other hand, an actual large carnivore conservation / scientific organization estimates the continent wide population at roughly 45,000. In fact, the world famous film maker/photographer / anti-hunter Dereck Joubert himself started his own photographic safari company in the Selous Game Reserve in Tanzania, and after only a couple of years he closed the doors – because even he couldn’t make it financially viable in what amounts to an in-hospitable place for most. Of course he never talks about this little fact, when telling the world how photographic / non-consumptive use is the only way to go. More on this subject below!
Considering 1/5 of Tanzania's land mass does in one way, shape or form utilize hunting, it only serves to reason that hunting would in fact play a role in the conservation model. Some may think the role is counter-productive to wildlife enhancement, but from personal experience I can attest otherwise.
Let's look at the 3 most recent Tanzanian game reserves I have hunted in over the past 4 years, those being the Lukwati, the Rungwa and Lake Rukwa. I've spent a combined 65 days in these reserves, in the field, hunting and observing the wildlife, and the areas. These are massive reserves, with zero legal human inhabitants / or legal domestic cattle grazing / farming / tree cutting allowed by law! Now, that doesn't completely stop said activities by those who see poaching, illegal grazing, tree cutting and other illegal actions as "ok", but it does then lend a need for these areas to be protected by those who care for the habitat and wildlife within the reserves. I am sure we can all agree on that, I would hope.
With that said, let me tell you all about my personal experiences in these wild areas, and ALL others I have been to over the past 20 years. Never, not one single time have I ever seen any anti-hunting wildlife organization of any kind - in any of these areas, doing anything to protect the wildlife / habitat, NEVER! Where's PETA, where's GREENPEACE, where's FUND FOR ANIMALS, where's LIONAID, where's DERECK JOUBERT, where are all of you anti-hunters when the wildlife needs you most, WHERE ARE YOU, WHERE'S YOUR MONEY???? You’re simply not there, period!! We hunters are fighting these massive poaching problems, and habitat encroachment by ourselves!!!! With our own money, our own time, our own blood, sweat and tears!!! All with ZERO help from the masses who claim we are the problem - what a joke!!! I personally have spent just over $1 million of my own money in these areas since 1995, what about you???
Every hunt conducted in Tanzania's game reserves requires what is called a "game scout" to be along. He's the game warden / game ranger in other words, and his job is to observe the hunt and make sure all game laws are followed, and all area quotas are abided by. He is in fact paid / employed by the Tanzania Wildlife Department (funded solely by hunters license fees, hunting concession fees, and animal trophy fees - imagine that). Without hunters paying these fees, who would financially support the Tanzania Wildlife Department? I don’t know either?? These game scouts are local blacks, well educated - most with a wildlife degree from the Mweka College in Arusha, and huge supporters of both wildlife protection and HUNTING! On my most recent safari to Tanzania, I asked our scout if in his 5 years as a game warden has he ever seen or received any help protecting wildlife/wildlife habitat from anyone, or any organization that was not affiliated with hunting in some way, shape or form. His answer, "Of course Not!" We have this on film too.
We pay 100% for the anti-poaching teams that are hired/employed mostly by the outfitting companies in each and every one of these wild/remote hunting areas, period! The Tanzania wildlife department employs them too – funded entirely by fees paid for by hunters dollars listed above!!!! The wildlife dept is responsible for the country's wildlife, including all of the game reserves - but they have not the means to protect them without hunter’s dollars – period! I personally have been on patrol with these teams of anti-poachers in Zambia (All blacks, and all devoted to the protection of the area/wildlife). I've been shot at, I've held poachers at gun-point, and I've seen the most repulsive example of indiscriminate mass poaching one could imagine (over 150 dead animal skins/carcasses/meat was laid out before us when we raided a poaching camp) Where were all of you anti hunters when we needed your help, when the wildlife needed your help? The hunting outfitters supply most the vehicles, supply camp necessities, supply food and any/all other equipment needed to keep these guys afield. All paid for by hunters dollars, 100%!!!! Don’t believe me, contact the Director of Wildlife for Tanzania and ask him. He too was interviewed in July, stating that roughly 50 lions are killed by sport hunters in Tanzania each year – bringing huge and much needed revenue to the wildlife department/country. While on the other hand, over 200 lions are poached/poisoned each year – all for NOTHING!!! So who’s the problem again??
HUNTERS PUT THEIR MONEY - WHERE THEIR MOUTHS ARE!
Anti - Hunters don't, just that simple. They scream, holler, jump up and down, rattle their swords and garner support via social media - but fixing the problem in Africa takes more than that.
For example - the recent worldwide outpouring of support for "Cecil" the lion raised only $550,000 for the Hwange lion research project that was responsible for collaring / studying him. That's it - all you antis could muster up was $550,000 from the millions around the world who screamed for justice, are you kidding me?? In only 4 hours, in one single ball room, in one night, attended by only a few thousand people - hunters raised $1 Million for Lion Conservation in Africa!! We are the supporters and protectors of wildlife, it’s that simple.
Some facts about these wild / remote areas like the game reserves mentioned above. Facts that lend to a lot of the reasons why they are utilized by hunters, rather than photographic safaris.
1. Although game rich in many instances, the areas are often not very attractive to the human eye. Rather they are heavily wooded, thus making game difficult to see - especially from a vehicle. Simply not good for photo opportunities.
2. These areas are most often infested with Tsetsee flies, if you have never experienced them - consider yourself lucky. My best comparison, mosquitos on steroids - that swarm your vehicle from daylight to dark. Most women/children, and softies would be out of there in 2 hours.
3. These areas are very remote / expensive to get to! For example, the Serengeti is a mere 2.5 hour drive from a major commercial airport (Arusha) on good tar/paved roads. To get to the Lake Rukwa Reserve in 2014 I had two choices - a $16,000.00 (No Kidding) Roundtrip air charter from Dar Es Salaam for a 2.5 hour flight, or fly to a local town and then take a 16-hour drive on horrible roads into the camp. Few are willing to do either, generally only hunters.
4. The roads are often very rough once in the reserves, conditions are hot / dusty / sweaty, and generally - hunters are the only ones willing to go to such remote and difficult locations. Evident by my examples above when I tell you - I have never seen a sole in these areas outside of our party members / employees and those that are in there to break the law.
5. Use some business savvy when thinking every area in Africa could be used as photographic tourism - that's nonsense. Does one think you could simply add hundreds of photographic lodges around Africa, and "they will come?" Be real, you can only saturate any market so much - before the supply out-weighs the demand. The cost to run photo operations in these wild areas would be so astronomical - no one could/would ever afford it. Why do you think they (photographic operations) are NOT there already? They stick with the easy / cheap to get to / beautiful locales, and leave the more difficult areas to the hunters. Don’t get me wrong I am a huge supporter of Photo safaris – I think everyone should get the chance to experience Africa’s beauty, but not every place is suited for it. Speaking again of Dereck Joubert – famous wildlife life photographer / film maker and leading anti-hunter. Perhaps some of you might ask him why his attempt at starting a photographic operation in the Selous Game Reserve (Tanzania) failed miserably after only 2 years. Surely if anyone could make it work in such a place, it would be the world famous Dereck Joubert? Sorry, just had to mention that again.
The fact remains, these areas have in many cases incredible numbers of game animals - just as they have for decades, all while being run / protected by hunters. Why if we are such bad stewards of wildlife, does game numbers remain high throughout the game reserves of Tanzania and similar places in eastern/southern Africa where hunting is the main focus? In fact, outside of national parks/private preserves, hunting areas are the ONLY place where wildlife still remains in any calculable numbers – period! Why is this, because we are true conservationists and our number one concern is for the overall wildlife population in these areas. It would be an incredible loss to wildlife if these blocks ever stopped hunting, as the poachers would literally infiltrate, and exterminate the game within 12 - 24 months. If we hunters are so bad for wildlife, why do all the poachers come to HUNTING AREAS to poach? Because that's where the game is my friends, protected for years by us. But don't believe what I say, go to these places for yourself - see for yourself, then tell me I'm wrong. I challenge you to do so!!
SOME FACTS ABOUT LIONS / LION HUNTING:
1. Most males, including mature males (4 yrs old / older) are NOT pride holding males. The fact is, most males who are pride holders are so for less than 2 full years - usually in the 5/6 year old range. The competition is too fierce, fighting for / holding a pride is too difficult, and too often another younger / stronger male, or coalition of males comes along and takes over. So please stop thinking every time a male is shot, he's a pride holder / with dependent cubs. Not all pride males have dependent cubs at all times. In fact, some males never become pride males - period. Too much Discovery Channel, and too little personal experience leads to false assumptions!
2. Male Lions are supreme hunters! This mis-conception that male lions do not hunt is FALSE. They hunt all the time, even when they are with a pride of females. Even when with a pride, males often go on walk about for 1 - 2 weeks at time, patrolling their territory and warming other rival males. They will go 1 - 2 weeks without ever seeing their prides at all, rest assured they hunt (I've seen them do so).
3. Baiting lions while hunting, is beneficial to sound lion hunting management! In recent years countries like Tanzania and many individual hunters, PH's and hunting companies have adopted the "Huntable Lion" definition as the acceptable lion to shoot. Again, this is a lion of 6 years old or older, without dependent cubs. By baiting the lion (which in many cases is the ONLY way you will ever see one in truly wild areas) this allows the PH to observe the lion - often times for multiple days. He then can best determine the lion's age, and often times see if he is in fact with a dependent pride. Thus hopefully eliminating the off-take of an undesirable male - and it works tremendously well.
Four years ago the Tanzania Wildlife Department implemented their new law - making it illegal to shoot a male lion under 6 yrs of age. The year prior to the law going into effect / and our "Huntable Lion" definition doing the same, roughly 300 lions were killed by hunters countrywide. Year one of the new law - roughly 150 lions were killed, year two roughly 80 lions and last year 43 lions were killed by hunters. Hunters have continued to work hard at eliminating the off take of any undesirable male lion - and have become more willing to go home without one, rather than make a mistake. It’s truly been a win-win for lions, and the wildlife. We still hunt, we still pay a lot of money to do so - but unless we find the "right/legal" lion, we are ok with not pulling the trigger. For me, I am very proud of that accomplishment and the ability of my fellow hunters to recognize the scientific data that was just coming out - and abiding by it.
4. Many of the wild areas in Tanzania would simply NOT survive without lion hunting. It’s without a doubt the largest financial draw, and until others step up and help us in these wild/remote places, the money truly is needed for habitat/wildlife protection. This unquestionably is a fact.
5. Wild lions don’t have names, they are not friends with “Pumba” and don’t dance around the campfire with others. They are fighters, they are killers, they have no feelings for the game they hunt and they take no prisoners. They practice infanticide, and survival is their only goal. Stop humanizing a wild animal, humans they are not.
Two examples of my own lion hunts in Tanzania in the past two years.
A. 2014 - Lake Rukwa Game Reserve / $70,000.00 lion hunt. 5 male lions seen, 4 of them deemed to be 5 years old or under. 1 male was easily 6 years plus, but he in fact had dependent cubs. He was a tremendous trophy lion, I would have been thrilled with him - but we simply took film/pictures of him and let him be. In 21 days of hunting, I did not shoot a lion. Conservation minded lion hunting at work!
B. 2015 - Inyonga East / $75,000.00 lion hunt. 4 Male lions seen, 2 of them were deemed 5 years or under. One of them was a spectacular big maned lion - but he was NOT old enough in our estimation, so we let him be. The other two we felt were 6 plus. I did shoot one of these lions, but not until we observed him at the bait site for 3 days. So we could make sure he was old enough, alone/no cubs, etc. In fact the game scout was chewing my rear end for not shooting him earlier, as we all believed he was actually 7-8 years old. But I wanted to be sure - I would have rather left without one, than shot one that was still a bit too young, or with dependents. Conservation minded lion hunting at work!
No one cares for more, loves or works harder to protect the "King of Beasts" than do I and my hunting brothers/sisters. To me, the Lion is the most incredible creature on the planet and nothing I want to see more than his longevity!!!
AFRICA'S LARGEST PROBLEM FACING WILDLIFE:
The largest problem facing Tanzania's (Africa's too) wildlife is human encroachment / habitat loss. With a population of just over 50 million people, and 50% unemployment - Tanzania has huge wildlife / human conflict problems (like much of wild Africa). As the population continues to grow, the people need land and they need food. Thus trees are cut for fire wood, cultivation and other uses, wildlife is pushed further away / poached out completely and livestock replaces what was once grazed upon by wild animals. I've seen it time and time again. Masailand is a prime example, and the masai people are prime examples of natives wanting nothing to do with wildlife, and lions in particular. Traditional masai are nomadic, and find their value / wealth in cattle and goats. As their numbers have continued to grow, so has their need for land - including land once occupied by wildlife. More so, the masai simply have no use for predators - lions in particular. No place are lions more persecuted, harassed, hated, and POISONED than here. A PH friend of mine hunted a masai area block in 2012 - counting 22 lions on one safari. In 2013 he returned to the same block - which had seen more invasion by masai cattle/goats, and he saw only 2 lions – he also personally witnessed / photographed an entire pride wiped out by poisoning. If we as hunters are forced to abandon Tanzania's remaining wild areas - the same example will repeat itself over and over. The habitat/game will ALL be gone.
WE HAVE BEEN TOLD BY THE MASAI THIS "ONLY YOU WHITE PEOPLE WANT LIONS, WE DON'T WANT THEM HERE". They don't, they see them as competition, as pests, as a problem - period! And yes, I am very familiar with "Lion Guardians", a noble cause that will ultimately fail. You simply cannot change the masai culture, period. Certainly they will change a few, but 80% of them will never stop killing lions - I guarantee it!!!
ANTI - HUNTERS:
Too many anti-hunters sit on the side lines and cast stones, while having absolutely zero knowledge/experience on which to base their opinion. They are driven by emotion, and the “Disney factor”, nothing more. In fact, the reason we hunters have continued to see a rise in cyber bullying, name calling, cussing and vile language as well as continued threats to our life/family/property and jobs is - that's all they have! When someone like myself has 20 years of practical field experience, factual scientific data from qualified researchers that I know personally, as well as the world's leading wildlife / law making organizations such as (CITES, USFWS, and others) continually stating that hunting does in fact contribute to sound wildlife management - we don't need to resort to such low-level attacks. Frankly, it’s simply a tell-tale sign of the moral decay of society in my opinion - and clear evidence that people are less respectful of others, and less inclined to learn about something before castigating it. I find it quite hypocritical that some are opposed to the killing of wildlife, but have no problem calling for, hoping for, and threatening to kill another human being. How pathetic, and frankly sad is that? A lot of this is the very reason why law making / regulation making organizations continue to side on behalf of conservation minded hunting. Facts are facts, and emotional rhetoric is emotional rhetoric.
Bottom line folks - Hunting is still the best conservation tool we have throughout much of wild Africa. Nobody, anti-hunters included can grant wildlife eternal life, it doesn't work that way people. They all eventually die, period! In the case of conservation minded hunting - the theory of "sacrificing a few to save the many" is legit and working as it has for decades!
Throughout much of remote Africa, the locals want hunting, they like hunting, they support hunting, they need hunting - who are you first-world / arm chair quarterbacks to tell them what they can/can't do with their wildlife? Especially when you know absolutely nothing about any of it?
Communities are offered employment, money is given for schools, hospitals - as well as much needed protein from animals hunted. All of which I have seen and contributed to as well, have you? The trackers are always black / locals, and they are the best hunters I have ever seen. They love to hunt, they were born to hunt - and they want nothing more than to do it every day of their lives. Many of whom, have become my friends - and several of whom I have given additional money to numerous times, helping them to support their families. Have you??
Emotion and irrationality will not save Africa's wildlife! Only money, hard work, and persistence will do so. We as hunters want what anti-hunters and non-hunters want too, Africa's wildlife to live on and prosper forever. I can without question tell you this - if for one second I thought that eliminating all hunting (lion hunting in particular) was the answer to saving Africa's wildlife, including the lion. I would be the first one standing in line, lobbying for its closure - I promise you that. Fact is, over 1000 days spent on the Dark Continent tells me otherwise!!
Perhaps working together – rather than fighting amongst each other could be more productive for wildlife around the world? Just a thought!
Thank you for reading - Aaron Neilson (Lion Hunter / Wildlife Conservationist)
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Old 07-22-2017, 08:30 PM
 
56,988 posts, read 35,179,016 times
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Originally Posted by redwood66 View Post
Since when do we in the US have the right to tell other countries what to do with their animal population? If they do it to help the locals then that is their business. If they did it just for the $ that is their business too. Anyone here that eats meat and is complaining ought to take a look at some slaughter house videos and how that is done by the billions each year. I appreciate everything any animal provides to me and my family.
LMAO...Americans tell other countries what to do all the time. We've told nations that we don't like who they voted for, so we're unilaterally gonna depose their elected leader.
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