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Yes, exactly. Its also not a basic right to participate, or to feel valued. People always try to pass off emotion as thought.
"It is the epitome of being told there are places you cannot go, things you cannot do.. or be" - YES when it comes to someone else's property. To think you have a higher claim over someone else's property than they do is ridiculous and narcissistic. I don't care if that makes you feel bad.
The damages were to the bakers who were denied freedom of association (a.k.a. property rights) and had 135k stolen from them to assuage someones hurt feelings. Doesnt sound like something that should happen in a free society does it?
The damages were to the bakers who were denied freedom of association (a.k.a. property rights) and had 135k stolen from them to assuage someones hurt feelings. Doesnt sound like something that should happen in a free society does it?
For once we agree.
Those that support forcing the bakers to cater to those who violate the bakers religious beliefs are the same people who have no problem supporting people who refuse to do their jobs based upon religious beliefs. Those same people feel a business must cater to a person's religious views.
Example: Flight attendant who refused to serve alcoholic beverages. Truck driver who refused to deliver beer. Businesses required to allow muslims time to pray on company time. There are many more examples.
For the life of me I can't imagine wanting a cake from a place that makes it known they don't like you.
Sounds like a bunch of people on this forum want to enjoy the benefits of being a member of society while picking and choosing the laws that apply to them while exhibiting a fundamental misunderstanding of how this country's judicial system works.
Everyone is free to practice religion, be it Catholicism, Islam, or Scientology, or Frank DeForrest-ism and adhere to the beliefs of each. However, no religion trumps facially and as-applied neutral laws. If Frank DeForrest-ism holds a belief that African-Americans are Satan's minions and must be killed, that's perfectly fine, but it doesn't override statutory law prohibiting murder or authorize its followers to kill African-Americans.
Likewise, people are free to operate their businesses, but must do so in accordance with laws that govern business. Want to open a bakery? Great. You are religious? Superb. Your religious beliefs, however, do not override the laws governing the operation of bakeries. If Frank DeForrest-ism holds a belief that one must never clean dishes and that rat feces are sacred and to be left spattered throughout kitchens everywhere, that's perfectly fine, but it doesn't excuse Frank DeForrest the baker from abiding by health codes that govern the operation of a commercial kitchen. So, too, apply anti-discrimination laws. Frank DeForrest the baker is not permitted to operate a place of public accommodation and refuse to serve African-Americans because that would violate State and Federal anti-discrimination laws, even if that meant providing cakes to Satan's minions who must be killed.
This makes sense, because people who operate places of public accommodation get many benefits from the government and from society-at-large. In return, they must agree to adhere to the rule of law and codified societal norms. No one is forcing them to open a bakery, and Frank DeForrest is free to choose whether he wants to operate a bakery or adhere to his religious beliefs. But he cannot have his cake and eat it too.
For once we agree.
Those that support forcing the bakers to cater to those who violate the bakers religious beliefs are the same people who have no problem supporting people who refuse to do their jobs based upon religious beliefs. Those same people feel a business must cater to a person's religious views.
Example: Flight attendant who refused to serve alcoholic beverages. Truck driver who refused to deliver beer. Businesses required to allow muslims time to pray on company time. There are many more examples.
For the life of me I can't imagine wanting a cake from a place that makes it known they don't like you.
Reasonable accommodations can often be worked out. For example, the flight attendant who refuses to serve alcoholic beverages worked for two months with other flight attendants doing the drink serving part of her job. However, when this was no longer possible, she could have been moved to baggage handling, or check-in, or other positions that did not involve serving alcohol.
A pharmacist who refuses to fill certain prescriptions such as birth control, could work for a pharmacy that supplies medications for nursing homes, but working for the local Walgreens would be out.
If a truck driver refuses to deliver beer, then working for Budweiser is out.
The baker doesn't have to bake wedding cakes for those he disapproves of. In fact, he doesn't have to bake wedding cakes at all.
Will be interesting to see how SCOTUS rules on this.
Well, the beauty of the living in a society is that you can make efforts to have the law changed and, if enough people agree with you, it will be changed. However, if not enough people agree, then you have to live with it or move. Based on the comments on this forum, I don't think you're going to reach critical mass
I wouldn't say the forum but public opinion on general. Most people (within a margin of error) do not support religious convictions as a reason for shopkeepers to discriminate. LSU found that in a study published in April that 47% want religious convictions to be a reason to discriminate while 49% do not think it should be. The 2017 Louisiana Survey: Opinion Divided on This wild be fairly consistent with Pew who found 48% want religious convictions to be a reason to discriminate while 49% again thinks it shouldn't be. Key facts about Americans Safe to say it is a small and within margin of error difference but it shows that it isn't as clear as we would think.
Reasonable accommodations can often be worked out. For example, the flight attendant who refuses to serve alcoholic beverages worked for two months with other flight attendants doing the drink serving part of her job. However, when this was no longer possible, she could have been moved to baggage handling, or check-in, or other positions that did not involve serving alcohol.
A pharmacist who refuses to fill certain prescriptions such as birth control, could work for a pharmacy that supplies medications for nursing homes, but working for the local Walgreens would be out.
If a truck driver refuses to deliver beer, then working for Budweiser is out.
The baker doesn't have to bake wedding cakes for those he disapproves of. In fact, he doesn't have to bake wedding cakes at all.
Will be interesting to see how SCOTUS rules on this.
Bakers don't HAVE to bake wedding cakes period. A baker can just do cookies and cakes and claim all wedding cakes are too hard and complex. However when a baker does for one and not others, it is different. Even different than asking a kosher Jewish deli for a grilled cheese and ham or Muslim restaurant for pork. Instead there is no true conviction that says that Christians cannot serve gays or transexuals.
They shouldn't be allowed to refuse service due to religious beliefs. They are running a business. They need to leave their religious beliefs at home when dealing with the public.
This.
If one's religious beliefs preclude operating a business according to the standards in force where that business is/would be operating then the business shouldn't be licensed in the first place.
I contract to be a rented slave, for who I wish and at the resources my perspective Master agrees to my worth.
People think they are interviewing me. Little do they know, I am interviewing them more to see if it is worth my time.
I have walked away from more and said no thank you, more than the contracts I have signed.
I have a line item fee on my pricing schedule: Instant ass-hole fee. It makes my bid so high, they go elsewhere(although sometimes I still got the contract signed????? WTF!)
If a business provides a service, that same service should be provided to any paying customer regardless of the personal background of that customer or the religious prejudices of the business.
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