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Old 09-05-2017, 01:41 PM
Noc
 
1,436 posts, read 1,893,906 times
Reputation: 613

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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilcart View Post
for the thousandth time.

NK developed nukes BEFORE OBAMA got into OFFICE.


in 2006 NK detonated a nuke. by jan 2009 they had enough nukes to destroy SK . so yes over the last 30 years or more we have a
BUSH (R)
BUSH (R)
CLINTON (D)
CLINTON (D)
BUSH (R)
REAGAN (R)
REAGAN(R)

all of whom failed to stop NK from getting nukes.

Obama, Trump both came into office while NK was able to murder million BEFORE we could take them out completely. Trump's error is to talk like a fool and to make idle threats. Trump can do nothing because doing anything could result in millions dying. So he should shut his mouth and work quietly behind the scenes to secure a deal with china and russia that allows Kim to hold power while slowly backing out of his militarized state.
it is the only solution that works for everyone.
My issue right here. Trump chastised Obama for drawing a line in the sand on ISIS or whomever that was and Trump has ran his mouth pretty much doing the same thing. Until he actually dose anything he's a blow hard.
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Old 09-05-2017, 01:52 PM
 
42,492 posts, read 26,516,914 times
Reputation: 14117
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilcart View Post
for the thousandth time.

NK developed nukes BEFORE OBAMA got into OFFICE.


in 2006 NK detonated a nuke. by jan 2009 they had enough nukes to destroy SK . so yes over the last 30 years or more we have a
BUSH (R)
BUSH (R)
CLINTON (D)
CLINTON (D)
BUSH (R)
REAGAN (R)
REAGAN(R)

all of whom failed to stop NK from getting nukes.

Obama, Trump both came into office while NK was able to murder million BEFORE we could take them out completely. Trump's error is to talk like a fool and to make idle threats. Trump can do nothing because doing anything could result in millions dying. So he should shut his mouth and work quietly behind the scenes to secure a deal with china and russia that allows Kim to hold power while slowly backing out of his militarized state.
it is the only solution that works for everyone.
Kim isn't going to back out of his militarized state. His entire economy is based on militarization. His country has made enormous sacrifices to get him his nuclear capabilities. He wants to negotiate from a position of strength, and the nuclear capabilities are his chosen position of strength. Even without the nuclear capabilities, he has enough armaments aimed at South Korea to wreak horrible devastation. He has cultivated an image of North Korea as a country beset by enemies, a country that has to be armed and prepared for attack at any moment. He may even believe this.

Trump truly has inherited a terribly difficult situation. Egging Un on is a mistake. Un is not a mature leader; Un does not have a realistic worldview. China cannot rescue this situation. It's going to take many countries, it's going to take time and infinite patience, and it's going to take the rest of the world finding ways to reach the North Korean people, to make any progress.
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Old 09-05-2017, 02:03 PM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
17,797 posts, read 14,084,861 times
Reputation: 13717
Kim's nuclear arsenal built up much faster than any predicted. What are the odds that he has had Russian or Chinese help?

As far as what actions Trump will take; he has already stated that he will not tell his opponents until it is too late. We do not know the fine details of preparation for war? We do not know the tides, the weather, the logistics and we have no idea of the negotiations taking place behind closed doors. Other than shooting off our mouths; we have no real inside information.

Of course there is the other catalyst: NK and what they are going or not going to do? We could be waiting for simply the right provocation for justification?
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Old 09-05-2017, 02:11 PM
 
Location: London
12,277 posts, read 5,836,897 times
Reputation: 13574
Here's to hoping that they don't change their mind.
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Old 09-05-2017, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Long Island
42,568 posts, read 17,453,322 times
Reputation: 9976
Trump can continue to put pressure on China but there are no good options, I just find all the criticism of Obama and other presidents wrong headed. There is not much to do short of sanctions, all this tough talk made Trump look foolish and on a level Kim Jong Un. He isn't as stupid as you think he is, he just wants to get our attention and bargain from a position of power but it is dangerous.

Even before they developed their nuclear capability we were not going to war with them, let's not make believe that was a reasonable option past or present.


The title of this thread looks more than just a little foolish at this point.
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Old 09-05-2017, 02:20 PM
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
64,667 posts, read 45,930,366 times
Reputation: 34956
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
Kim isn't going to back out of his militarized state. His entire economy is based on militarization. His country has made enormous sacrifices to get him his nuclear capabilities. He wants to negotiate from a position of strength, and the nuclear capabilities are his chosen position of strength. Even without the nuclear capabilities, he has enough armaments aimed at South Korea to wreak horrible devastation. He has cultivated an image of North Korea as a country beset by enemies, a country that has to be armed and prepared for attack at any moment. He may even believe this.

Trump truly has inherited a terribly difficult situation. Egging Un on is a mistake. Un is not a mature leader; Un does not have a realistic worldview. China cannot rescue this situation. It's going to take many countries, it's going to take time and infinite patience, and it's going to take the rest of the world finding ways to reach the North Korean people, to make any progress.

And a 70 year old man so emotionally needy he makes up phone calls praising himself is?
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Old 09-05-2017, 02:31 PM
 
42,492 posts, read 26,516,914 times
Reputation: 14117
Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
And a 70 year old man so emotionally needy he makes up phone calls praising himself is?
My point was about Un, and how egging him on was a poor strategy. Trump's temperament isn't ideal for dealing with Un, but we need a Macchiavelli to deal with Un, and there aren't any Macchiavellis around. Tillerman has a more moderate temperament than Trump, but the situation with Un is so fraught that I don't think Tillerman is up to this. Putin wants to leave the United States swinging in the breeze, so he's not going to offer up anything constructive. The South Korean president was elected partly on anti-US sentiment, so his assistance will be marginalized. Japan is willing to assist, but their ability to assist is limited. China isn't happy with Un, they certainly weren't happy about the hydrogen bomb, but they are hamstrung diplomatically, because they want to keep North Korea under control (the last thing they want is a war on the Korean peninsula), but they also want to keep American influence in Asia limited (and letting Un rattle his sabers actually suits their diplomatic goals at times). It's very complicated, obviously.
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Old 09-05-2017, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Texas
38,873 posts, read 22,025,111 times
Reputation: 24780
Talking More WINNING...North Korea backs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by PullMyFinger View Post
So while progressive idiots waste our time with their race baiting and hustling the President is getting great things done. Like putting North Korea into a box and then making that box smaller and smaller.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/north-k...eat-1502751054

Well, well, well...

That didn't last long at all.

Did it...

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Old 09-05-2017, 05:22 PM
 
3,033 posts, read 804,452 times
Reputation: 1057
Some wonder of the consequences if and when the North Korean nuclear test site is going to implode. North Korea
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Old 09-05-2017, 05:38 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 2,089,412 times
Reputation: 2265
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
Kim isn't going to back out of his militarized state. His entire economy is based on militarization. His country has made enormous sacrifices to get him his nuclear capabilities. He wants to negotiate from a position of strength, and the nuclear capabilities are his chosen position of strength. Even without the nuclear capabilities, he has enough armaments aimed at South Korea to wreak horrible devastation. He has cultivated an image of North Korea as a country beset by enemies, a country that has to be armed and prepared for attack at any moment. He may even believe this.

Trump truly has inherited a terribly difficult situation. Egging Un on is a mistake. Un is not a mature leader; Un does not have a realistic worldview. China cannot rescue this situation. It's going to take many countries, it's going to take time and infinite patience, and it's going to take the rest of the world finding ways to reach the North Korean people, to make any progress.
North Korea is a country beset by enemies. It shares a border with a nation with whom it has a ceasefire. That nation holds massive military demonstrations with the world's most powerful country--a country that regularly denounces North Korea & its leader. A country that declared N. Korea part of the Axis of Evil and invaded one of the three members of that so-called Axis. And that country is allied not just with South Korea, but also with Japan, another neighbor with a history of hostility. And US troops and equipment are stationed in both South Korea and Japan.

North Korea is making decisions about self preservation. It has pumped its resources into security in order to preserve its rule. Advocating regime change is unlikely to change the way North Korea does business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
Kim's nuclear arsenal built up much faster than any predicted. What are the odds that he has had Russian or Chinese help?

As far as what actions Trump will take; he has already stated that he will not tell his opponents until it is too late. We do not know the fine details of preparation for war? We do not know the tides, the weather, the logistics and we have no idea of the negotiations taking place behind closed doors. Other than shooting off our mouths; we have no real inside information.

Of course there is the other catalyst: NK and what they are going or not going to do? We could be waiting for simply the right provocation for justification?
There is no justification for a preventive attack on NK. What options exist re: NK? Long, slow, diplomatic work. China, Japan, both Koreas, and Russia must be at the table. The US goal should be to establish a coalition with China, S. Korea, and Japan on the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
Trump can continue to put pressure on China but there are no good options, I just find all the criticism of Obama and other presidents wrong headed. There is not much to do short of sanctions, all this tough talk made Trump look foolish and on a level Kim Jong Un. He isn't as stupid as you think he is, he just wants to get our attention and bargain from a position of power but it is dangerous.

Even before they developed their nuclear capability we were not going to war with them, let's not make believe that was a reasonable option past or present.

The title of this thread looks more than just a little foolish at this point.
Indeed. And the OP looks quite foolish. Trump indeed sounds like Kim Jong Un or Kim Jong Il in his public statements on this situation. And he drew a red line that N. Korea instantly and repeatedly stepped across, demonstrating his impotence.

What do you know, an unwise President makes a difficult situation worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
My point was about Un, and how egging him on was a poor strategy. Trump's temperament isn't ideal for dealing with Un, but we need a Macchiavelli to deal with Un, and there aren't any Macchiavellis around. Tillerman has a more moderate temperament than Trump, but the situation with Un is so fraught that I don't think Tillerman is up to this. Putin wants to leave the United States swinging in the breeze, so he's not going to offer up anything constructive. The South Korean president was elected partly on anti-US sentiment, so his assistance will be marginalized. Japan is willing to assist, but their ability to assist is limited. China isn't happy with Un, they certainly weren't happy about the hydrogen bomb, but they are hamstrung diplomatically, because they want to keep North Korea under control (the last thing they want is a war on the Korean peninsula), but they also want to keep American influence in Asia limited (and letting Un rattle his sabers actually suits their diplomatic goals at times). It's very complicated, obviously.
What we need to do is talk to the regional powers. What we don't need to do is pretend that this problem will magically be resolved exactly as we please. We need realistic goals and we need to be willing to compromise to reach a resolution.
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