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The problem with your argument is that I have never once said I didnt understand Southern Pride, but plenty here seem to not understand why black people dont want these statues to remain.
And As i said in the thread about polling on the Issue, its false, you have to ask people why they want to to stay up, and the fact that a majority want them to stay up doesnt negate the fact that people want them down.
I would also like to point out that in that poll that said a majority want the statues to remain, the margin of victory was the same as the number of black people who agreed with white supremacy. So yeah.......
An astute observation. I also want to bring something else up. 54 percent of Blacks live in the South. A majority of Blacks live in the South. Most Blacks in the USA no matter where they are from have southern ancestry. By this definition, the vast majority of Blacks have some form of southern heritage. The majority of Blacks are not claiming the Confederate flag or the statues as part of their "southern pride". My mother is a born and raised Black southerner. Her sentiment about the Confederate flag: "I'm southern, but it's not my pride".
I live in Georgia and the vast majority of Blacks I have met tell me they find the Confederate flag offensive. And this is not something new. This goes back to 2000, when I was in high school.
I bring this up because this is something that is either glossed over, or totally ignored. Of, if not ignored, a reason to bring up some token Black.
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Originally Posted by green_mariner
An astute observation. I also want to bring something else up. 54 percent of Blacks live in the South. A majority of Blacks live in the South. Most Blacks in the USA no matter where they are from have southern ancestry. By this definition, the vast majority of Blacks have some form of southern heritage. The majority of Blacks are not claiming the Confederate flag or the statues as part of their "southern pride". My mother is a born and raised Black southerner. Her sentiment about the Confederate flag: "I'm southern, but it's not my pride".
I live in Georgia and the vast majority of Blacks I have met tell me they find the Confederate flag offensive. And this is not something new. This goes back to 2000, when I was in high school.
I bring this up because this is something that is either glossed over, or totally ignored. Of, if not ignored, a reason to bring up some token Black.
You have a belief that these things should stay up. Others dont.
THe weird part is that you seem to not understand why people would want them down, and like others you seem to be using the " token black person " defense.
I'm playing devil's advocate on this whole thing...to a certain extent.
Of course I can understand why some may find them offensive. Offensive enough to demand they be taken down?
No, I can't understand that. I admit that much. I personally have no idea how someone thinks if they find something in the public sphere to be offensive that the only option is removal.
It is something I have brought up in other threads. The question is this. When will said persons go ahead and admit this? Said persons would have no problem bringing up Black crime. Why not bring up why a majority of Blacks don't see the Confederate flag(or anything Confederate) as part of their "southern pride and heritage" and why the Confederates are looked at in a negative way.
I see your point, and appreciate your thoughtful and non smart-blanky reply. I really and truly do, and I have no wish to erase history, either. The thing is, I can't help but think that the best place for some of these statues is in museums where they really would be made part of an educational program about history. I think every schoolchild in the country should visit such a museum, so we do always remember.
The problem that I have with the statues in public parks is that a statue is usually erected to honor someone for his or her accomplishments, and I don't think much of what the Confederacy was attempting to accomplish. That made answering your original question a lot harder for me, I had to think hard about it. Clearly, that slave was not a leader of the Confederacy, and I feel real tenderness toward him, as I do toward all who were enslaved. I just have to wonder, though...how would he like to be remembered? I wish he was alive to ask. Knowing what little I do of his story, I find it difficult to see him as a symbol of the Confederacy, and very easy to see him as a symbol of forgiveness, however undeserved by those upon whom he chose to bestow it.
As for your last comments, those regarding how one must experience history, truly experience it? That is impossible unless it repeats itself, and no more likely to be achieved by looking at a statue than by reading a book. The only difference between the two is the medium.
I couldn't disagree more.
History is much like a crime scene: Preserve it as much as possible in its natural state.
The fact that the bulk of the regular Confederate statues were placed in town squares to tower over the area is part of that history. People must be able to go to the town square and see the importance of the statues in relation to the town. That can only be accomplished in person, live, and without obstruction.
Then all the motives can be discussed.
The statues are monuments to heroes. That is why they tower over the town square.
The statues are monuments to a past that couldn't be let go. That is why they tower over the town square.
The statues are monuments to bravery, courage and pride. That is why they tower over the town square.
The statues are monuments to bigotry, hatred, and oppression. That is why they tower over the town square.
The people can gather in that town square and discuss these issues. This is how you learn history. This is how you experience history. This is also how you interact, relate, and learn about the experiences of others.
Books are a fine source. But they aren't enough when it comes to the human experience.
As for the particular monument to the slave boy who died at age 14. Again, I couldn't disagree more.
That monument is part of his experience. It's not in his own words. It does not encapsulate the entirety of who he was. I wonder if schools visit this monument who have boys that age? Wouldn't that be an interesting experience for them? To see in real life where the owner placed the monument?
We can't succumb to the emotional element within us that says to heal the pain of these mistakes we have to do X,Y and Z in their honor.
We have to accept what happened, how it was recognized (the memorials, statues, etc) and go from there.
Maybe it will make folks think twice about the concept of putting up statues, monuments, etc in the future?
I'm playing devil's advocate on this whole thing...to a certain extent.
Of course I can understand why some may find them offensive. Offensive enough to demand they be taken down?
No, I can't understand that. I admit that much. I personally have no idea how someone thinks if they find something in the public sphere to be offensive that the only option is removal.
I'm with you. I completely understand why black people are offended by it. This bit about being proud of your southern heritage - there's no other way to display that? I think that's b.s.
People should be free to hang flags and keep statues if they want them. The only exception in my mind is if someone is serving the public - like a judge, politician, police chief, cop. I question their ability to be fair and impartial with minorities and I'm all for any action taken against them for flying it. (there was a case where a female police chief flew the flag outside her home last year)
But to completely remove things all of a sudden because they're offensive? I don't like knee jerk responses like this. These are emotion-fueled incidents that are violating the rights of other people. Stop and think about the long term impact of this. It's not good.
They are rare but do exist. Places like Darlington, South Carolina and Canton, Mississippi have statues/monuments dedicated to Black men and boys who aided the Confederacy in the war.
The inscription on Willis Howcott's memorial by his master William Hill Howcott reads...
“A tribute to my faithful servant and friend, Willis Howcott, a colored boy of rare loyalty and faithfulness, whose memory I cherish with deep gratitude”.
My feelings are mixed; the monuments serve as vivid reminders of the horrors of slavery. I almost think they should stand just for that reason.
Of course they should. Egypt isn't going around removing all monuments of Ramses, even though he was probably far worse than any of these confederate soldiers. It's history. Use it as a teachable moment.
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